Making the news today....

[Doug Tait]

4 hours ago, kevinjohnsonmbe said:

There is margin for ‘interpretation.’

 

Example you use the term “instruction” 

 

What is an “instruction?”  Is it a request or a direction, is it a lawful order?

 

if a request - it can be granted or rejected accordingly. similarly an “instruction”, what constitutes a lawful order is less well understood by BOTH the police (UK) and the public. 
 

The uniform and warrant card do not bestow unrestricted authority upon the constable to issue advice, expect requests to be complied with, hand out instructions - lawful orders are quite different. 
 

 

That gave me something to think about. I won't argue there may be situations when it's legal and sensible not to blindly do what you are told, but if an Officer points a weapon at you and says get out the car, it's not the time to discuss if it's a lawful order. 

[Doug Tait]

13 minutes ago, Khriss said:

A read of Michael Mansfield QC autobiography would reveal why you dont. Oddly the Police can lie and fabricate evidence. I always get out of the  car and lock it, then we are eye level and can have the reason for the stop explained. K

Khriss I don't doubt the police and courts can be unpleasant , and I can understand why many people have no trust in them. But how does non compliance improve the situation they're in at that moment.

 

As it happens I always get out the car as well, and go to them. I think it says you should in the highway code (if it's still called the highway code)

[kevinjohnsonmbe]

2 hours ago, Khriss said:

Indeed they dont, as this young man discovered.... Probably why the lieutenant did not want to get out of his truck. K

 

Met PC jailed for breaking man’s leg in ‘clear case of racial profiling’

WWW.BBC.CO.UK

---

Carl Abrahams was leaving a cemetery with his sons when he was stopped by PC Charlie Harrison.

 

 

It’s not helpful to cross reference US and UK, statutory, legal, social and habitual precedents. 
 

I haven’t read the AB you mention K but (a) sounds like goody and (b) you seem to be advancing a fairly reasonable proposition that the task of law enforcement (not intentionally using a US term) is to investigate a potential crime and there is no obligation upon the ‘suspect’ to assist in that process - if I’ve interpreted that correctly, I totally agree. 
 

“whatever you say may be recorded and used in evidence”

 

Immediately followed by a question....

 

”Do you understand?”

 

You've just told me I don’t need to say anything now you’re straight in with the questions....

 

Theres a great YouTube vid (unfortunately, US, which summarises this - I’ll see if I can find it. 

 

 

[kevinjohnsonmbe]

8 hours ago, kevinjohnsonmbe said:

It’s not helpful to cross reference US and UK, statutory, legal, social and habitual precedents. 
 

I haven’t read the AB you mention K but (a) sounds like goody and (b) you seem to be advancing a fairly reasonable proposition that the task of law enforcement (not intentionally using a US term) is to investigate a potential crime and there is no obligation upon the ‘suspect’ to assist in that process - if I’ve interpreted that correctly, I totally agree. 
 

“whatever you say may be recorded and used in evidence”

 

Immediately followed by a question....

 

”Do you understand?”

 

You've just told me I don’t need to say anything now you’re straight in with the questions....

 

Theres a great YouTube vid (unfortunately, US, which summarises this - I’ll see if I can find it. 

 

 

There it is....

 

Straight from the university of YouTube 😂

[Khriss]

@kevinjohnsonmbe thats pretty much of a nutshell in his book. I will not even accept a Police caution as that remains on yr record for life. If yr convicted of murder, serve yr sentence - that does not have to be declared after. K

[Khriss]

( though Peter Tatchell is still irritating 😤) 

[nepia]

3 hours ago, Khriss said:

I will not even accept a Police caution as that remains on yr record for life

Think you're wrong there but even if you're not - and that would be due to a recent change in legislation - there's the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act that makes past offences 'expire' for court purposes, the date of expiry being calculated according to the sentence passed.  'Expire' in that context means that a sentencing court should not take stale offences into consideration when passing sentence.

 

Also were you ever in the position to be deciding whether to accept a caution or not you'd be forcing a decision on the Police/CPS - charge and put you before a court or take no further action.

 

Edited April 15, 2021 by nepia

[Khriss]

36 minutes ago, nepia said:

Think you're wrong there but even if you're not - and that would be due to a recent change in legislation - there's the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act that makes past offences 'expire' for court purposes, the date of expiry being calculated according to the sentence passed.  'Expire' in that context means that a sentencing court should not take stale offences into consideration when passing sentence.

 

Also were you ever in the position to be deciding whether to accept a caution or not you'd be forcing a decision on the Police/CPS - charge and put you before a court or take no further action.

 

.... I could also get into yr DNA record or evidential retention 😉 but a bit early in the day for that  😆 K

[kevinjohnsonmbe]

This is interesting (IMO)

 

https://www.treehugger.com/france-to-ban-short-flights-5176583

 

More efficient trains could equate to fewer domestic flights (not suggesting this is a complicated or controversial concept 😂)

 

I wonder if the anti-HS2 brigade would see a benefit in fewer domestic flights?

[Mark J]

2 hours ago, kevinjohnsonmbe said:

This is interesting (IMO)

 

https://www.treehugger.com/france-to-ban-short-flights-5176583

 

More efficient trains could equate to fewer domestic flights (not suggesting this is a complicated or controversial concept 😂)

 

I wonder if the anti-HS2 brigade would see a benefit in fewer domestic flights?

I don't know the numbers, but I don't imagine that many people fly from Leeds to London.
HS2 is (should be) a dead duck by now. 
More efficient trains on current routes would be a start.

 

Edited April 16, 2021 by Mark J