Making the news today....

[daveatdave]

12 hours ago, Steven P said:

 

Never seen piles of dead birds under any of the turbines I have been around....

you won't because of all the scavenger birds and animals will have them overnight plus i know 3 keepers that go early morning before the dog walkers and ramblers get there and pick any protected birds up so Thay are not accused of killing them 

[Mesterh]

20 minutes ago, daveatdave said:

you won't because of all the scavenger birds and animals will have them overnight plus i know 3 keepers that go early morning before the dog walkers and ramblers get there and pick any protected birds up so Thay are not accused of killing them 

Survival of the fittest.

jk aside, wind turbines look krap and I think that's it's ridiculous that there is hardly any infrastructure in place to store the energy that they produce!

I'm sure that there are a few peopel on here that have worked in the green/renewable sector, if so why can't we harness the power of the ocean? Twice a day the moon moves a scramferious amount of water about, Shirly we can capitalise on the tides of billions of tons of water sloshing about?

 

 

[Steven P]

46 minutes ago, Mesterh said:

Survival of the fittest.

jk aside, wind turbines look krap and I think that's it's ridiculous that there is hardly any infrastructure in place to store the energy that they produce!

I'm sure that there are a few peopel on here that have worked in the green/renewable sector, if so why can't we harness the power of the ocean? Twice a day the moon moves a scramferious amount of water about, Shirly we can capitalise on the tides of billions of tons of water sloshing about?

 

 

 

It's all to do with the technology and profit. Electricity generation can be quite profitable - so lots of research and technology for the cheaper and easier options than there is for energy storage. The profit for energy storage is pretty much the difference in off peak prices to peak electricity prices. Buy cheap, sell expensive. Not so profitable so the big players haven't invested as much. So far the reliable storage is lithium batteries - a finite resource, but also limited in how quickly they can dig out the lithum. They are developing other battery systems, such as one based on sodium (from sea salt) which is far more abundant and should be cheaper.. but a newer technology that is still developing. Apart from batteries there is hydrogen (hydrogen from water) which can be used in place of gas, a reasonably new industry with a few UK plants operating and a few under construction and in planning. These can create the hydrogen and also be a 'petrol staton' in the same location - you don't need tankers, just a water supply and an electricity power line. But very correct, energy storage is lagging behind electricity generation - once it is balanced then we can move forward with a cheap, renewable electricity generation system that is future proof when the oil runs out and independent on foreign energy sources (such as Russian oil, or african solar farms). A couple of other options like pumped hydro and high pressure air - pump water up to a high reservoir, let ot go down when needed idea - but these schemes are limited to peak supply only - not enough capacity or suitable stores. So batteries - still a developing industry that needs to catch up (and perhaps need some incentives to build the kit).

 

Ocean power... yup, a bit of a holy grail to get reliable generation from the tides, a lot of systems have been tried and fail with reliability. That would be the best option if it can work, it would give a predictable output every day.. but reliability and maintenance ruins most it. Storms are a big issue - wind turbines can revolve to avoid damage, anything floating on the sea gets hit by everything. Off shore wind turbines are a more established technology onshore and benefit from this offshore. You could do river tidal schemes, the Mersey and the Severn have been looked at but... you would essentially need to put a weir at the end of the river to capture the tidal water at high tide, let it out at low tide, but the environmental types don't like that - the fish get upset.

[Johnsond]

6 hours ago, Steven P said:

 

It's all to do with the technology and profit. Electricity generation can be quite profitable - so lots of research and technology for the cheaper and easier options than there is for energy storage. The profit for energy storage is pretty much the difference in off peak prices to peak electricity prices. Buy cheap, sell expensive. Not so profitable so the big players haven't invested as much. So far the reliable storage is lithium batteries - a finite resource, but also limited in how quickly they can dig out the lithum. They are developing other battery systems, such as one based on sodium (from sea salt) which is far more abundant and should be cheaper.. but a newer technology that is still developing. Apart from batteries there is hydrogen (hydrogen from water) which can be used in place of gas, a reasonably new industry with a few UK plants operating and a few under construction and in planning. These can create the hydrogen and also be a 'petrol staton' in the same location - you don't need tankers, just a water supply and an electricity power line. But very correct, energy storage is lagging behind electricity generation - once it is balanced then we can move forward with a cheap, renewable electricity generation system that is future proof when the oil runs out and independent on foreign energy sources (such as Russian oil, or african solar farms). A couple of other options like pumped hydro and high pressure air - pump water up to a high reservoir, let ot go down when needed idea - but these schemes are limited to peak supply only - not enough capacity or suitable stores. So batteries - still a developing industry that needs to catch up (and perhaps need some incentives to build the kit).

 

Ocean power... yup, a bit of a holy grail to get reliable generation from the tides, a lot of systems have been tried and fail with reliability. That would be the best option if it can work, it would give a predictable output every day.. but reliability and maintenance ruins most it. Storms are a big issue - wind turbines can revolve to avoid damage, anything floating on the sea gets hit by everything. Off shore wind turbines are a more established technology onshore and benefit from this offshore. You could do river tidal schemes, the Mersey and the Severn have been looked at but... you would essentially need to put a weir at the end of the river to capture the tidal water at high tide, let it out at low tide, but the environmental types don't like that - the fish get upset.

Sorry but yet another post that is long but factually just not anywhere near the mark. 
The technology you allude to is already in place and working. The absence of tidal lagoon power generation in the UK is purely and simple a lack of political will. As I said previously if you are actually involved in an industry you tend to pick up on what’s possible and what’s actually happening. You might want to do a bit of research on “ pumped hydro” it’s already established and operational in a number of locations. 

DeepOcean performs offshore maintenance on MeyGen tidal energy project - Offshore Energy

WWW.OFFSHORE-ENERGY.BIZ

---

DeepOcean has been hired to conduct offshore maintenance work on MeyGen tidal energy...

 

Edited September 24, 2023 by Johnsond

[difflock]

8 hours ago, Mesterh said:

Survival of the fittest.

jk aside, wind turbines look krap and I think that's it's ridiculous that there is hardly any infrastructure in place to store the energy that they produce!

I'm sure that there are a few peopel on here that have worked in the green/renewable sector, if so why can't we harness the power of the ocean? Twice a day the moon moves a scramferious amount of water about, Shirly we can capitalise on the tides of billions of tons of water sloshing about?

 

 

Except anything power generating with moving parts in a marine environment has a very limited life due to;

(i) The limited number of materials that are both mechanically strong while still being  unsusceptible to salt water/salt laden sea air  corrosion.

and,

(ii) The insurmountable issue with barnacles and other such sea life, that get in everywhere, escpecially there is a moving current of water to provide them with nutriants.

(iii) Never mind the destructive power of storms, likely making construction cost prohibitive.

 

Edited September 24, 2023 by difflock

[openspaceman]

2 hours ago, difflock said:

Except anything power generating with moving parts in a marine environment has a very limited life due to;

(i) The limited number of materials that are both mechanically strong while still being  unsusceptible to salt water/salt laden sea air  corrosion.

and,

(ii) The insurmountable issue with barnacles and other such sea life, that get in everywhere, escpecially there is a moving current of water to provide them with nutriants.

(iii) Never mind the destructive power of storms, likely making construction cost prohibitive.

 

That's my thoughts too but ships seem to have a 30+ year lifetime as do some commercial airplanes, I wonder how long modern multi megawatt wind turbines will remain in service.

[dumper]

On 23/09/2023 at 11:36, Will C said:

If we burn all the cats in a biomass boiler we would get some power and a few more birds to keep the wind turbines spinning for an extra few months a year! Winner winner 

And no catsuit in my garden!

 

[Mick Dempsey]

1 hour ago, dumper said:

And no catsuit in my garden!

 

Maybe just on special occasions?

[Steven P]

11 hours ago, Johnsond said:

Sorry but yet another post that is long but factually just not anywhere near the mark. 
The technology you allude to is already in place and working. The absence of tidal lagoon power generation in the UK is purely and simple a lack of political will. As I said previously if you are actually involved in an industry you tend to pick up on what’s possible and what’s actually happening. You might want to do a bit of research on “ pumped hydro” it’s already established and operational in a number of locations. 

DeepOcean performs offshore maintenance on MeyGen tidal energy project - Offshore Energy

WWW.OFFSHORE-ENERGY.BIZ

---

DeepOcean has been hired to conduct offshore maintenance work on MeyGen tidal energy...

 

 

Thanks, that shows my point perfectly, and others about off shore tidal generation. This single scheme you found out to highlight - produces the energy for 12,000 houses (though there is a potential to increase this). A single, new 8MW wind turbine will produce, alone, the power for 16,000 houses (with both running at full capacity).... Tidal power isn't the answer to generating electricity for the UK at the moment.

 

You mention pumped hydro as a storage medium, yes, it exists but not in the scale required to power the whole UK if the wind drops on cloudy days - I might have mentioned that above...

Edit here to reference pumped hydro storage. UK has pumped hydro storage of about 2,800 MWh (which is a lot), but use about 1TWh daily.... which is lot more

 

 

I think I am preferring the slant of the discussion towards cats at the moment

Edited September 24, 2023 by Steven P

[Johnsond]

1 hour ago, Steven P said:

 

Thanks, that shows my point perfectly, and others about off shore tidal generation. This single scheme you found out to highlight - produces the energy for 12,000 houses (though there is a potential to increase this). A single, new 8MW wind turbine will produce, alone, the power for 16,000 houses (with both running at full capacity).... Tidal power isn't the answer to generating electricity for the UK at the moment.

 

You mention pumped hydro as a storage medium, yes, it exists but not in the scale required to power the whole UK if the wind drops on cloudy days - I might have mentioned that above...

 

 

I think I am preferring the slant of the discussion towards cats at the moment

I figured you’d try and drag it down to the level you are comfortable with. Especially once you were called out again. I mentioned that particular site as it’s one I’ve dived on and am familiar with no other reason, you can’t beat real time experience or knowledge on a subject I find. Talking about knowledge I’ll just pop a bit of info  in that might help you to work out that pumped hydro doesn’t need sun or wind, rather it does its thing at off peak periods. I’ve had an amusing discussion with the Norwegian guys on the vessel when trying to explain to them your theory of using wind and solar to pump water. 

Edited September 24, 2023 by Johnsond