Reg on one handing a saw

[tree-fancier123]

maybe cut and hold is safer if a long sling is used - although of course this takes a few seconds longer, probably why unpopular - everyone has to start somewhere and gardeners like me who fancy a bit of treework too will price competitively and end up suffering and struggling - not everyone can build a decent business

 

the neck accident must have happened a few times - hence why Stihl wont sell the saws without a ticket

 

This device looks promising for lowering smaller stuff and giving the climber control of friction

TreeStuff Aerial Friction Brake

[Haironyourchest]

Isn't it all about taking your time? Any task with inherent risk can be done "safely" given enough time - time to acquire optimal work positioning, time to plot kinetic energy movement and establish an escape manoeuvre, time to make the cut properly and so on. Of course, the counterpoint is there is not enough time. But if one was starting out, working alone, then one could conceivably make the time even if it meant working for half wages or half the profit per day. With experience, the time needed to perform safely would lessen. When it comes to training other people, I don't think there is any real solution, other then to get them to work nearly for free, to counteract the loss in productivity. Even an experience guy is going to be increasing his risk when he is hurried...Ive never broken a bone (touch wood) and never had a serious injury at work - and thats years of working on seriously dodgy sites, scaffolding held together with wire kind of thing, purely because I always take my time, no matter what. All movement is slow and deliberate and planned. Constant monitoring of my workmates to avoid dropped objects/falling bodies etc. On the other hand, I've also alway been poor....

[skyhuck]

Totally understand that Dave, and pretty much sums it up for a lot of our generation. Here's the bit I'm stuck on though - the lad who cut his neck and died just recently, be it the worst case scenario. I'm training up a lad called Darrell right now, who's already a good pruner, but I want to get him proficient at take downs too. Just because it'll do him good, whether he stays with me or goes off in his own. Same as you training up your lad really. Now what if either of them took one in the neck and died....inspired by what they've seen us to. Because, like you say at some point they are going to do their own thing. It might be next week when we have our backs turned. Or in Darrell case when he's doing one of his side jobs. It could happen. Doesn't bear thinking about how either of us would feel about that after the event. Now they're both grown men and ultimately responsible for their own actions. But so are we, and in that sense have to think very carefully at times how we are influencing people who look up to us. The do as I say but not as I do thing is a bit hollow. I'm just being honest.

 

That's the thing with accidents of any kind. It's easy to say what should have been foreseeable thereafter....but the fact remains that they still happen.

 

There's no easy fix, if in fact you think there's anything that needs fixing. That's why we're just discussing and not arguing about it. No harm in looking at yourself once in a while and asking if there's room for improvement.

 

I think a lot of people one handle because they don't want to rig stuff. Not necessarily because either is faster or slower, as every tree and location is unique. But often is the case, and especially if there's just you and a single ground worker, that it's not a cost effective use of the ground worker to have his time spent helping with the dismantling the tree when he could be clearing it up or being productive elsewhere on the site. So we use our free hand in the tree to catch, hold, flip and steer our work away from targets.

 

Many times with Darrel I'll do a lot of self rigging to help him out down below. Sometimes in conventionAL style, and others via a more static means ie a fixed line is used to move, hold or hang sections in the tree, and I'll then disect the suspended piece up there, leaving Darrell free to get in with other things. Doesn't work on every job, but on many it's been the difference between finishing inside if budget, or not. Pricing jobs higher to allow for extra time can often result in not getting the job at all. So we have to improvise.

 

Excellent posts Reg

 

Its not about laziness, its about wanting to get on and make a living for our families and about feeling we are capable of doing it safely, which many uninjured climbers over many years would suggest is true.

 

I don't know the answer.

 

I have wondered about increasing our crew size and rigging, but that would impact on our standard of life.

 

I also wonder is one handing day in day out makes you less likely to get it wrong, as opposed only one handing when its really needed or on the odd occasion for what ever reason? I don't know.

[Rob D]

Good to see this point discussed - espeically as with the new very light weight top handled saws - Stihl 150T and Echo 2511TES - are much easier to use one handed to cut and chuck....

 

 

Just thinking outside the box in I wonder if it would be possible to develop a saw that was safer to cut and hold?

 

Not saying the below as at all suitable cause clearly it ain't - but thinking along those lines where the back of the bar is guarded and also the tip?

 

Could be as default in closed position - by pressing one button jaws open - press another and this activates the chain and also causes the lower jaw to pivot upright to complete the cut.

 

 

Just putting it out there as 'food for thought'!

 

 

[Vespasian]

battery operated chainsaws might solve a few problems... finger off accelerator blades comes to a stop...

 

I expect its one of the reasons silky got one... extra margin of safety..

[scotspine1]

Just want to clear one thing up here that newer guys to the industry may not be aware of.

 

Highly skilled climbers could - if forced to - easily use a saw two handed for 99% of their work (the other 1% is storm damage/release cuts on heavy end weighted big branches etc). Many choose not to because they're aware of the risks and have accepted those risks as part of the job. For many it's automatic and they don't even give it a second thought. I can think of a few climbers I know who would look at this debate between Reg and the Blog guy and it wouldn't even register because one handing a saw is so normal and acceptable to them it's not even worth a single second of consideration. That doesn't make them close-minded by the way before any progressives start down that well beaten path.

 

I worked for a company in the states where one handed use was banned and for that year and a half 100% of my cuts where two handed (under the threat of 2 days suspension (no pay) or full dismissal). The work ranged daily from 100ft+ Oak/Tulip rigging/crane removals over houses/roads etc to large dead wooding climbs to small and medium street tree pruning.

 

Every seasoned climber I saw come into that company adjusted their approach to cut two handed, it was either that or lose their job. The "no one handing culture" was deeply engrained. The thing is, a big part of being a good climber is about finding solutions in the tree, so finding a way to make all of your cuts two handed was, in a way, part of that mindset.

 

That was 15 years ago. Looking back over the last 20 years I've been in treework I've seen climbers who use the saw one handed with great confidence and skill. I've also seen cack handed climbers who have no business attempting to use the saw one handed. In fact there's many people now in treework who are simply not physically or mentally capable of the job.

 

Last thing.....on cut n hold, some climbers can do this safely with no problems day in day out for a whole career. That's not controversial it's a fact. Others simply shouldn't even consider trying it especially if they are physically weak or can't judge weights, distances, angle of swing (even with a Stihl 150). That's not saying the physically weaker climber is wrong or less effective it's just saying they need to find a different solution that is suitable for their skills.

 

 

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[MattyF]

Good post tim.

[bigtreedon]

Just want to clear one thing up here that newer guys to the industry may not be aware of.

 

Highly skilled climbers could - if forced to - easily use a saw two handed for 99% of their work (the other 1% is storm damage/release cuts on heavy end weighted big branches etc). Many choose not to because they're aware of the risks and have accepted those risks as part of the job. For many it's automatic and they don't even give it a second thought. I can think of a few climbers I know who would look at this debate between Reg and the Blog guy and it wouldn't even register because one handing a saw is so normal and acceptable to them it's not even worth a single second of consideration. That doesn't make them close-minded by the way before any progressives start down that well beaten path.

 

I worked for a company in the states where one handed use was banned and for that year and a half 100% of my cuts where two handed (under the threat of 2 days suspension (no pay) or full dismissal). The work ranged daily from 100ft+ Oak/Tulip rigging/crane removals over houses/roads etc to large dead wooding climbs to small and medium street tree pruning.

 

Every seasoned climber I saw come into that company adjusted their approach to cut two handed, it was either that or lose their job. The "no one handing culture" was deeply engrained. The thing is, a big part of being a good climber is about finding solutions in the tree, so finding a way to make all of your cuts two handed was, in a way, part of that mindset.

 

That was 15 years ago. Looking back over the last 20 years I've been in treework I've seen climbers who use the saw one handed with great confidence and skill. I've also seen cack handed climbers who have no business attempting to use the saw one handed. In fact there's many people now in treework who are simply not physically or mentally capable of the job.

 

Last thing.....on cut n hold, some climbers can do this safely with no problems day in day out for a whole career. That's not controversial it's a fact. Others simply shouldn't even consider trying it especially if they are physically weak or can't judge weights, distances, angle of swing (even with a Stihl 150). That's not saying the physically weaker climber is wrong or less effective it's just saying they need to find a different solution that is suitable for their skills.

 

 

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Well said 🖒

 

Sent from my SM-G930F using Arbtalk mobile app

[D Mc]

Nice post, scotspine1 .

[Haironyourchest]

Good to see this point discussed - espeically as with the new very light weight top handled saws - Stihl 150T and Echo 2511TES - are much easier to use one handed to cut and chuck....

 

 

Just thinking outside the box in I wonder if it would be possible to develop a saw that was safer to cut and hold?

 

Not saying the below as at all suitable cause clearly it ain't - but thinking along those lines where the back of the bar is guarded and also the tip?

 

Could be as default in closed position - by pressing one button jaws open - press another and this activates the chain and also causes the lower jaw to pivot upright to complete the cut.

 

 

Just putting it out there as 'food for thought'!

 

 

 

I invented something like that - it replaces the felling spikes and extends a blunt spine along the back of the bar, slightly narrower than the chain. Will prevent kickback and if you do contact the top of the bar it saves you. The only problem is you can't backbar the cut, but then if one was one handing why would you want to?

 

https://photos.google.com/photo/AF1QipM2GlOP5QFas0DBVtiDkUrYEczCNIO8ve0Ozt8c