Making the news today....

[Big J]

On 01/09/2023 at 07:23, trigger_andy said:

The UK certainly needs to get its house in order thats for sure! Until we do we should shut the doors to all but the very exceptional asylum cases.

No one seems to be able to explain how we will build near enough homes to house the 600-700,0000 migrants coming in per year. Its simply not feasible. Its the elephant in the room that we're ignoring and responding with soundbites such as 'well, we have a huge skill' shortage. Its such non sequitur reasoning. 

 

This is primarily because of open borders and joining  the EU. I'm 'only' 44 and when I was a youth there was no foreign fruit and veg pickers it was all done by British workers, myself included. When you flood the market with cheap labour who is happy working their fingers to the bone for what is seen as a pittance to the indigenous people then they'll simply stop working in that sector. I have no doubt that if the Eastern Europeans who have undercut the British people would simply upsticks if the Farmers were allowed to import North Koreans who'd thank their lucky stars at simply being given 3 square meals a day and a warm bed without the threat of their whole family being sent to a reeducation camp. 

 

Joining the EU and the importation of cheap labour has been devastating to the UK and will take generations to fix. Only those who pin their hopes on Brexit failing expect decades of dumbing down the UK to the lowest common denominator would be fixed within a few years. 

 

The UK labour market was knackered long before there was full freedom of movement. Was it not the case in the 70s and 80s that unionised workers spent as much time on strike as actually working? And the productivity rate in the UK has always lagged behind the rest of the EU.

 

It's an idealistic but arguably noble notion to say that without the option of cheap foreign labour that the youth of the UK will step up to fill the void. I just don't see it though. I work harder than most, and I'm fitter than almost everyone, but I don't have the grit to do the kind of work that agriculture demands. I'm not defending the working conditions either - it's hard brutal work, but then the remuneration is such that unless you're incredibly determined and hard working, you won't make enough money. How many people that have grown up in the UK do you know that you could see in that line of work? 

 

They have a more open attitude to immigration here because we live in a depopulated area. So much so that our council did a (really funny, especially if you live here) video to attract people to our area 6 years ago. They poke a lot of fun at themselves, but you get an idea of what it's like here (though we're not in Hultsfred itself).

 

 

 

[Doug Tait]

That could conceivably be next year's Eurovision song winner!

[trigger_andy]

1 hour ago, Big J said:

The UK labour market was knackered long before there was full freedom of movement.

Yet all the fruit and Tattie pickers you’re indigenous back then. We had thriving apprenticeships throughout the U.K. that was then decimated by a flood of cheap pre-qualified European workers.

 

We now see a resurgence in apprenticeships and this is primarily due to greedy companies no longer having easy access to cheap foreign labour and now having to look to long term workforce development. (I see you cover this in your next paragraph but in my opinion the facts don’t tally with your POV)

 

1 hour ago, Big J said:

. I work harder than most,

My dad works harder than your dad.  

No, I know you do. And I know agriculture is hard graft. So when the EU allows those from Eastern Europe to undermine the already meagre wages of course the indigenous population will look elsewhere for employment. 
 

1 hour ago, Big J said:

How many people that have grown up in the UK do you know that you could see in that line of work? 

I live in the heart of Angus, the breadbasket of Scotland. I’m surrounded by Farms and Farmers. My friends and acquaintances are Farmers and they also employ local lads. Now that I think about it I see very few Europeans in their workforce. 
 

There is still the bus loads of seasonal workers doing the unskilled laborious work of course. But they do it because it’s financially viable for them. If I could move to a nice 1st world country for the summer and make multiple times the wage I could at home then I’d do that too. The only way we can have incredibly cheap fresh produce is by paying the workers pennies on the pound but at the same time those pennies on the pound are actual pounds for them where they come from. For an indigenous workforce to re-enter this market the wages would have to reflect the living costs of the country they are working/living in. Until that happens we’ll have those that believe Brexit was a bad idea calling these people lazy when I’m fact they are not willing to subject themselves to slave like conditions for pennies.

 

1 hour ago, Big J said:

have a more open attitude to immigration here because we live in a depopulated area.

And look where that’s got them….

 

Swedish PM says integration of immigrants has failed, fueled gang crime | Reuters

WWW.REUTERS.COM

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Sweden has failed to integrate the vast numbers of immigrants it has taken in over the past two decades, leading to parallel...

 

[Johnsond]

6 hours ago, trigger_andy said:

Yet all the fruit and Tattie pickers you’re indigenous back then. We had thriving apprenticeships throughout the U.K. that was then decimated by a flood of cheap pre-qualified European workers.

 

We now see a resurgence in apprenticeships and this is primarily due to greedy companies no longer having easy access to cheap foreign labour and now having to look to long term workforce development. (I see you cover this in your next paragraph but in my opinion the facts don’t tally with your POV)

 

My dad works harder than your dad.  

No, I know you do. And I know agriculture is hard graft. So when the EU allows those from Eastern Europe to undermine the already meagre wages of course the indigenous population will look elsewhere for employment. 
 

I live in the heart of Angus, the breadbasket of Scotland. I’m surrounded by Farms and Farmers. My friends and acquaintances are Farmers and they also employ local lads. Now that I think about it I see very few Europeans in their workforce. 
 

There is still the bus loads of seasonal workers doing the unskilled laborious work of course. But they do it because it’s financially viable for them. If I could move to a nice 1st world country for the summer and make multiple times the wage I could at home then I’d do that too. The only way we can have incredibly cheap fresh produce is by paying the workers pennies on the pound but at the same time those pennies on the pound are actual pounds for them where they come from. For an indigenous workforce to re-enter this market the wages would have to reflect the living costs of the country they are working/living in. Until that happens we’ll have those that believe Brexit was a bad idea calling these people lazy when I’m fact they are not willing to subject themselves to slave like conditions for pennies.

 

And look where that’s got them….

 

Swedish PM says integration of immigrants has failed, fueled gang crime | Reuters

WWW.REUTERS.COM

---

Sweden has failed to integrate the vast numbers of immigrants it has taken in over the past two decades, leading to parallel...

 

The first part of the quote is so appropriate nowadays. As for the second, well the reward is you get absolutely humped. 

[trigger_andy]

3 minutes ago, Johnsond said:

The first part of the quote is so appropriate nowadays. As for the second, well the reward is you get absolutely humped. 

Last year the unions got us a 5.2% increase (pish I know) The company was allowed to give poor performers 3.2% and high performers 7.2%. In the end they have everyone 5.2%. 🙄 

I don’t want a pay rise for tax reasons but I asked how on earth do people who work hard feel their work is appreciated. They said those that go the extra mile do so because the want to. 
 

Now the hard workers don’t bother their arse anymore. 🤷🏻‍♂️

[sime42]

On 01/09/2023 at 19:10, Stubby said:

Prigozin killed in a plane crash/shot down . Then several days later a video appears of him saying Hi , I'm fine ! BS or not ? 

 

[daveatdave]

14 hours ago, trigger_andy said:

Yet all the fruit and Tattie pickers you’re indigenous back then. We had thriving apprenticeships throughout the U.K. that was then decimated by a flood of cheap pre-qualified European workers.

 

We now see a resurgence in apprenticeships and this is primarily due to greedy companies no longer having easy access to cheap foreign labour and now having to look to long term workforce development. (I see you cover this in your next paragraph but in my opinion the facts don’t tally with your POV)

 

My dad works harder than your dad.  

No, I know you do. And I know agriculture is hard graft. So when the EU allows those from Eastern Europe to undermine the already meagre wages of course the indigenous population will look elsewhere for employment. 
 

I live in the heart of Angus, the breadbasket of Scotland. I’m surrounded by Farms and Farmers. My friends and acquaintances are Farmers and they also employ local lads. Now that I think about it I see very few Europeans in their workforce. 
 

There is still the bus loads of seasonal workers doing the unskilled laborious work of course. But they do it because it’s financially viable for them. If I could move to a nice 1st world country for the summer and make multiple times the wage I could at home then I’d do that too. The only way we can have incredibly cheap fresh produce is by paying the workers pennies on the pound but at the same time those pennies on the pound are actual pounds for them where they come from. For an indigenous workforce to re-enter this market the wages would have to reflect the living costs of the country they are working/living in. Until that happens we’ll have those that believe Brexit was a bad idea calling these people lazy when I’m fact they are not willing to subject themselves to slave like conditions for pennies.

 

And look where that’s got them….

 

Swedish PM says integration of immigrants has failed, fueled gang crime | Reuters

WWW.REUTERS.COM

---

Sweden has failed to integrate the vast numbers of immigrants it has taken in over the past two decades, leading to parallel...

 

these workers are getting paid at least the minimum wage plus bonuses accommodation on site spend little of their wages in the Nabour hood so they are not on penne's in the pound.

if they are getting bussed in there will be a gang Marster who no doubt be taking a cut of there wages and transport costs   

[WirralBoy]

1 hour ago, daveatdave said:

. . . . . . . .  spend little of their wages in the Nabour hood . . . . . . .

Please explain where this might be so that we may better understand your post.

[Big J]

On 02/09/2023 at 09:32, trigger_andy said:

Yet all the fruit and Tattie pickers you’re indigenous back then. We had thriving apprenticeships throughout the U.K. that was then decimated by a flood of cheap pre-qualified European workers.

 

We now see a resurgence in apprenticeships and this is primarily due to greedy companies no longer having easy access to cheap foreign labour and now having to look to long term workforce development. (I see you cover this in your next paragraph but in my opinion the facts don’t tally with your POV)

 

My dad works harder than your dad.  

No, I know you do. And I know agriculture is hard graft. So when the EU allows those from Eastern Europe to undermine the already meagre wages of course the indigenous population will look elsewhere for employment. 
 

I live in the heart of Angus, the breadbasket of Scotland. I’m surrounded by Farms and Farmers. My friends and acquaintances are Farmers and they also employ local lads. Now that I think about it I see very few Europeans in their workforce. 
 

There is still the bus loads of seasonal workers doing the unskilled laborious work of course. But they do it because it’s financially viable for them. If I could move to a nice 1st world country for the summer and make multiple times the wage I could at home then I’d do that too. The only way we can have incredibly cheap fresh produce is by paying the workers pennies on the pound but at the same time those pennies on the pound are actual pounds for them where they come from. For an indigenous workforce to re-enter this market the wages would have to reflect the living costs of the country they are working/living in. Until that happens we’ll have those that believe Brexit was a bad idea calling these people lazy when I’m fact they are not willing to subject themselves to slave like conditions for pennies.

 

And look where that’s got them….

 

Swedish PM says integration of immigrants has failed, fueled gang crime | Reuters

WWW.REUTERS.COM

---

Sweden has failed to integrate the vast numbers of immigrants it has taken in over the past two decades, leading to parallel...

 

 

I don't even think with higher wages that Brits would entertain the idea of fruit/veg picking. The issue is that it has to be tied to production rate and like with chainsaw operation, the difference between the best and the worst is massive and hourly rates can't be paid in such situations.

 

Another point potentially worth noting is that Brits aren't very good at sticking at one job for extended periods of time. I recall seeing a TV show where German and British employees swapped jobs for a period. I don't remember the name of the programme, but the German company was Faber Castell (pencil maker). They spoke to an employee who operated a specific machine and had done so for over ten years. He was perfectly happy. The job was semi skilled, but he was very good at it, had excellent work conditions and took pride in his work.

 

It is more common in the UK (and I include myself in this) for employees to see each job only as an entry on their CV. A progression to the next opportunity. That short-termist approach to employment means it's unlikely for UK workers to stick at fruit and veg picking for any period of time as they'll be looking at the employment horizon beyond.

 

It's a generalisation I know, but I do feel that there is truth in it. I found it to be the case with chainsaw operatives in the UK. It was very difficult to find quality cutters who were technically adept, hard working and without ego. The best cutters were running or wanted to run their own squads, and there were a lot of lads that thought they were brilliant when really they weren't. 

 

As regards immigration here in Sweden, no one will argue that it was done perfectly. Too many in too short a time is the consensus. The problems are obviously worse in the cities and we don't see the kinds of issues that they do. 

 

I really like that our school has 30% kids with parents born outside of Sweden. It's about 10-12% German/Austrian, and my daughters are at school with kids from Syria, the Baltic states, the UK, almost every country in Europe and even America. 

[Puffingbilly413]

2 hours ago, Big J said:

don't even think with higher wages that Brits would entertain the idea of fruit/veg picking. The issue is that it has to be tied to production rate and like with chainsaw operation, the difference between the best and the worst is massive and hourly rates can't be paid in such situations

But that's exactly how fruit picking is paid isn't it? A guaranteed statutory minimum wage that's effectively topped up by a piece rate. So if you want to earn more by working harder/faster then you can.