Making the news today....

[John Shutler]

13 minutes ago, Stubby said:

Dave . Don't you think 5.56 ( .223 ) is a bit too much for close quarter stuff . If it was something bigger but less powerful it would not have gone through the legitimate target , then a door and then into the unfortunate  ( collateral ) innocent guy hiding behind the door  ? 

IMO How frangible the round is is more important really.

 

[Johnsond]

19 minutes ago, Stubby said:

Dave . Don't you think 5.56 ( .223 ) is a bit too much for close quarter stuff . If it was something bigger but less powerful it would not have gone through the legitimate target , then a door and then into the unfortunate  ( collateral ) innocent guy hiding behind the door  ? 

I do but as has already been mentioned a lot depends upon the bullet design, you’d like to think they ain’t using FMJ ( if i recall the old SS109 round we mover over to when SA80 came in had pretty impressive penetration characteristics) it’s that age old “ what calibre” ie would 9mm para have been enough 🤷‍♂️probably yes that close. 
It’s hard to say but as someone has already mentioned if that lunatic hadn’t of been doing what he was doing then innocents would not have been killed.

 

[monkeybusiness]

I know nothing about bullets and rifles etc, but I do have a mate who is a police shooting range commander.
He told me (on a pub crawl, so I will almost definitely have the wrong end of the stick…) that the armed police essentially use ‘dum dum’ rounds (banned by the Geneva convention for armies shooting at each other due to the damage they inflict upon their target) as they are only ever going to shoot at someone when they need guaranteed immediate stopping power - the likelihood of the survival of the target is an irrelevance at the point the decision to shoot is taken. 
They don’t practice with these rounds in the indoor range as they fragment and there is a higher likelihood of ricochet. 

[Oldfeller]

whilst not universally accepted it was often suggested 5.56 / 223 was adopted in Vietnam by the US forces as it was less lethal than the7.62 nato round, it was figured if you killed one of the enemy it never slowed the rest down, whereas the less lethal 223 caused a non fatal wound and resulted in the wounded having to be carried, thus slowing their movements.

in addition to the fact that more ammo for the same overall weight could be carried by combatants.

not much comfort to the tragic outcome of this latest scenario, but we don't know all the facts, if it was a jacketed bullet or a soft nose, has it been confirmed as 223, as the H&K MP5 used by UK police is available in both 223/5.56 and 9x19.

if the bullet came apart either upon exiting the perp, it's likely to be unstable and not necessarily going to follow its original path, then it passed through what we're told was a heavy door with the end result that would have been hard to predict especially under extreme conditions experienced by the armed officers.

there is also the possibility of secondary fragmentation, ie debris from the door.

I expect the investigation will study all scenarios intensely.

Edited 1 hour ago by Oldfeller

[AHPP]

Someone post the most uncut footage available please. I can't be arsed wading through the waffling journos and portagriefs.

 

Though while someone finds that, I might remark that it looks (from the crap video I've just seen) that it's a fairly open area. Park a car on him and save everyone's hearing.

 

Right. Let's see a video.

Edited 1 hour ago by AHPP