Making the news today....

[kevinjohnsonmbe]

8 hours ago, Big J said:

 

That as it may be, he's pressed from a similar mould to the likes of Cameron, Major, Ken Clarke, Rory Stewart.

 

Today's Tory party bears little resemblance to that of 10-15 years ago.

Surprised you included Rory Stewart in that list J, I’m guessing the list is of people you don’t approve of. 
 

Stewart always came across as being NOT from the moral vortex brigade to me. 

[Big J]

7 hours ago, kevinjohnsonmbe said:

Surprised you included Rory Stewart in that list J, I’m guessing the list is of people you don’t approve of. 
 

Stewart always came across as being NOT from the moral vortex brigade to me. 

 

I have a lot of time for Rory Stewart and I agree, he's cut from a slightly different cloth to the others. The Tory party is a very broad church which in and of itself is one of the causes of Brexit (offering the vote was an act of appeasement to the ERG that backfired spectacularly on Cameron).

[coppice cutter]

10 hours ago, Honda said:

Consider this: Liz Truss sacked her Chancellor Kwasi Kwarteng for doing what she told him to do. But she has not sacked her new Chancellor Jeremy Hunt for undoing everything she told her Chancellor to do. Who voted for this idiot?  

I don't think she's an idiot.

 

She is however cowardly, untrustworthy, spineless, devious, dishonest, unprincipled, etc, etc, throw in as many similarly veined terms as you wish.

 

Indeed she possess all the qualities which will get you to the top of the tree politically, yet conversely, we want and expect the person running the country to be the opposite.

[kevinjohnsonmbe]

2 hours ago, Big J said:

 

I have a lot of time for Rory Stewart and I agree, he's cut from a slightly different cloth to the others. The Tory party is a very broad church which in and of itself is one of the causes of Brexit (offering the vote was an act of appeasement to the ERG that backfired spectacularly on Cameron).

Are you confusing democracy with individual personal preference there J?

 

Cameron first attempted, by negotiation with the EU, to bring about some very necessary changes to EU strategic direction - which was rejected by the EU. 
 

Only after that rejection did he then concede to the influence of a significant pressure group made up of directly elected representatives of the people that held a different view to his own viz a viz EU. 
 

Only then did the referendum materialise. 
 

All of those processes were appropriately democratic. 
 

Cameron found himself personally at odds with the outcome at each stage.  The only part of that that could be described as having backfired is that Cameron, at each stage, found himself at odds with the majority and so he resigned. 
 

On objective reflection, isn’t that exactly the model we should aspire to?

[trigger_andy]

18 hours ago, Big J said:

 

Well we disagree on the character of Starmer, and that's OK, but I feel that after 3 new Tory PMs that haven't been elected, it's time the public had a vote.

We vote for the Party and not the PM though. 

[Big J]

12 minutes ago, trigger_andy said:

We vote for the Party and not the PM though. 

 

That as the case may be, the Conservative Party has gone through such a seismic shift in recent years that continuously replacing the leader without the general public being allowed to choose seems to be undemocratic.

[Big J]

43 minutes ago, kevinjohnsonmbe said:

Are you confusing democracy with individual personal preference there J?

 

Cameron first attempted, by negotiation with the EU, to bring about some very necessary changes to EU strategic direction - which was rejected by the EU. 
 

Only after that rejection did he then concede to the influence of a significant pressure group made up of directly elected representatives of the people that held a different view to his own viz a viz EU. 
 

Only then did the referendum materialise. 
 

All of those processes were appropriately democratic. 
 

Cameron found himself personally at odds with the outcome at each stage.  The only part of that that could be described as having backfired is that Cameron, at each stage, found himself at odds with the majority and so he resigned. 
 

On objective reflection, isn’t that exactly the model we should aspire to?

 

I respect your take on the overall process and don't disagree that a democratic process of sorts was followed, but the entire campaign for Brexit was littered with half truths and complete lies, which had the effect of causing a tiny majority to vote for it. The upshot now is that the UK finds itself in a much lesser position than it did prior to Brexit with little benefit.

 

But that is water under the bridge and no longer has the same effect on me as it once did. It has happened, the consequences are being suffered and perhaps in a few years it'll be reversed. Time will tell.

 

On the point of Conservative Party leadership, it does rather seem that competence isn't a valued character trait for prospective leaders. Sunak accurately predicted what would happen if Truss took over, yet he isn't leader and she is...

[Logdaft]

[trigger_andy]

6 minutes ago, Big J said:

 

That as the case may be, the Conservative Party has gone through such a seismic shift in recent years that continuously replacing the leader without the general public being allowed to choose seems to be undemocratic.

Might seem it, but it’s not. 

[eggsarascal]

Unbelievable, especially from Gullis and Bradley, two of the biggest mouthpieces around here.

 

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