Two Rope Working Consultation

[Mr. Squirrel]

Just taking it back a few posts but the asap/asap lock is in my opinion not a suitable solution for tree work. 

As stated this is a fall arrest system. It states in the asap user manual that the fall distance if activated should be considered when using it. When hanging off the side of a building with nothing but air beneath you this is quite suitable. 

In tree care, let's say you ascended a short way, trailing the asap behind/beneath you, and made a cut. You're then taking a fall on to the ASAP/asap lock, and the absorber is deployed up to a length of 2m I believe? By which time you could easily have fallen 3m from your work position and hit another part of the tree. Better than just falling out of a tree, sure, but by no means an acceptable solution as a 2nd system. 

 

There will be non-arb solutions, but this isn't one of them.

[scotspine1]

1 hour ago, Jake Andrews said:

If something very very unlikely we’re to go wrong on a decent, you’ve got a backup. 

 

 

On the last Spruce pics, I’m descending on my main line with my flipline round the trunk. No need whatsoever for a full length extra life line. 

 

I’m not against change. 

 

I’m against unnecessary change just so that the HSE and AA can be seen to be doing something to address their statistical data

on accidents. 

 

Another recent job........most serious, experienced pro climbers today in the UK are using two tie in points at the work position when they’re cutting with the saw and they’re almost 100% tied in at the most critical moments in a removal for instance, here (rigging a head out). 

 

 

The HSE and most disappointedly the AA have delegitimised us all overnight when in reality the way we all currently climb today is both logical from a safety point of view and valid from a professional point of view. 

 

. 

[Mark_Skyland]

On 13/12/2019 at 15:20, warren said:

@mark skyland.

 

The petzl ASAP Lock gets the thumbs up ?????? from me. Much easier than feeding an srt setup and you can lock if off when you need to. You almost don't know it's there (other than feeding the extra line about obviously).

 

And a 2nd bridge helps with the crossing of kit.

 

Thanks for the goodies too. 

Glad to hear it works well with your setup.

 

 

I have to mention the following, I have spoken to Petzl and as earlier stated in the ASAP user instructions it should be used with a fall arrest harness, I will leave that as it is.

 

In regards to comments about the absorber deploying, it takes a lot of force and it is a progressive action, ie it doesnt drop you two metres as soon as it gets to xx amount of force. It wasnt designed for tree work but then a lot of the devices we use werent either.

 

Unfortunately the two rope climbing system is here to stay and I hope it goes no further otherwise it will be full body fall arrest harnesses, CE Certified climbing systems only and the level of IRATA training that would kill most arb firms off.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 15, 2019 by Mark_Skyland

[timbernut]

Experience climbers will be able to navigate this latest twin rope development using a main line, a lanyard and a shorter climbing line - say 5m/6m/7m. 
 
 
 
.

As someone else pointed out both climbing lines need to reach the ground!

[maybelateron]

9 hours ago, Jake Andrews said:

I haven’t climbed for the last 8 weeks due to snapping a tendon in my thumb but will be back to it after

Ouch. Having a hernia repair this afternoon, and not looking forward to the enforced rest. Still, I woke up this morning and there are plenty who didn't would happily swap places with me. Hope your tendon mends well.

[scotspine1]

1 hour ago, timbernut said:

As someone else pointed out both climbing lines need to reach the ground!

 

For the third time, from the AA two line update webpage FAQs

 

"Q: Will both ropes have to reach the ground?

 

A: New technical guide has been drafted stating that at least one of the systems in use by the operator must be capable of providing an uninterrupted descent to the ground (i.e. without the need for a change of anchor) from any point within the canopy in the event of a self-rescue being required.

During descent under normalclimbing conditions, the climber will need to ensure that they remain connected to two systems for theduration of their descent."

 

 

. 

[Marc Lewis]

Not sure of the exact figures, but I believe about 90% of rescues are self rescues and alot of injuries are to the arm or hand. Now if you have to self rescue on 2 lines and 2 friction hitches, this is going to be very awkward or indeed not possible with one arm/hand out of action.

[Joe Newton]

3 hours ago, scotspine1 said:

.

During descent under normalclimbing conditions, the climber will need to ensure that they remain connected to two systems for theduration of their descent."

 

 

. 

Does this not read "two climbing lines"?

[scotspine1]

1 hour ago, Joe Newton said:

Does this not read "two climbing lines"?

 

You will be able to descend to the ground on two lines using a main line, short rope (and lanyard) setup. 

 

The circles below show your working radius or zones you can reach with each rope. 

 

The red area is your main line, it can get you to every part of the tree shown within the red circle, it also reaches the ground at all times. 

 

The blue area is a secondary short rope, when you've finished pruning the top part of the tree, by the time you've moved your anchor for this rope down to a lower point in the canopy of the tree you should be able to descend to the ground on both your main line and short rope, 

 

The lanyard is for change overs between the mainline and short rope and additional work positioning support. 

 

 

 

Below shows you at the start point of the work, at this point you are tied into both the main rope and short rope, as you move across and down through the canopy you re-anchor the shorter rope to another zone, change overs are done using the lanyard so you are always tied in twice. 

 

 

 

By the time you've finished the shorter rope circle/zone of work has moved down to a point where you can descend to the ground on it (and the main line together). The main purpose of using a shorter rope is that it negates the need to drag the trailing ends of two 45m ropes around the tree. This system could be adapted to DdRT or SRT or a combination of both. 

 

 

 

 

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[Brocky]

If something goes wrong with the main line in the second picture, there wouldn’t be a line to reach the ground, which I think this is all trying to provide for the climber.