H&S head scratcher

[Mark Bolam]

Oh no!

Guess what has just appeared in my hand?

[htb]

Rather not

[Dan Maynard]

Nice cup of tea in my hand...

When I was doing CS39 I talked about which units to do next, my trainer thought CS32 isn't much use in domestic arb as if you get a bigger tree you would pick up a bigger saw. But I don't see any units at all allowing you to use a 25" bar.

I guess I'm saying the idea we only do things which are on the certs is flawed at several levels. Portfolio of past work seems to me the best way to demonstrate competence.

[drinksloe]

I'm the last person u want to ask about H&S risk assesments etc, like agri mog says with timber it could chance massively if u find something u didn't expect or even if weather changes (possibly more for felling if wind is completely wrong direction)

Every step in life is risk assesed (most folk don't walk in front of buses) and manage fine with out writing it down

 

Dunno if u said in ur method statement u would 'chog' the tree down 100% to ground level so no actual felling cuts needed? End of day no 1 will see u do it if on the school hols anyway

 

Not doubting the OP's ability but i imagine the school is wanting to avoid a situation like that clip that was on here a while back, some boys making a complete hash of a tottem pole and almost wiping out a cyclist. And there is plenty other clips on here of probably/possibly good enough climbers making pure ****s of relatively simple straight fells.

 

I would imagine 32 would be a handy ticket for many climbers just for these occasions as will take any guesswork out of it. Plus a pretty easy ticket to do, most experienced/common sensed boys could do it with little or no extra training (fact is most of u will be doing it no and again anyway with no problems) Possibly even handier now as no big tree ticket anymore so saves u doing the next 1 too as u used to do if tree is over 32.

 

Ps Just to complicate matters further with 32, does it still specify hard and softwoods? Dunno if it was the felling or the crown breakdown but sure u used to get an a and b part of ticket for hard/softwoods.

Possibly if being very anal u shpould have it for correct tree type if that still is a 'thing'

[Thesnarlingbadger]

Thanks for all the reply’s here guys. I have been told that I need to get a CS32 before we can work on that tree. I have asked if I can sub someone in with a CS32 and am waiting for a response.

I’m not pissed off I know they are just trying to do what’s best for the school. Just a little frustrated as I am allowed to go and Monolith another tree of the same size for them. I could literally stand on spikes 6” off the ground and fell 40ft of stem out because that is complying with H&S but doing safely from the ground is not acceptable.
I will go out and do the CS32 hopefully in the first month or two of next year (if there are any courses). I’m happy to do that like I said because at the end of the day it’s all knowledge and helpful in the long run.

Mark I have had a few drinks over the past few nights trying to resolve this.

[spuddog0507]

On 13/12/2018 at 22:44, Thesnarlingbadger said:

Thanks for all the reply’s here guys. I have been told that I need to get a CS32 before we can work on that tree. I have asked if I can sub someone in with a CS32 and am waiting for a response.

I’m not pissed off I know they are just trying to do what’s best for the school. Just a little frustrated as I am allowed to go and Monolith another tree of the same size for them. I could literally stand on spikes 6” off the ground and fell 40ft of stem out because that is complying with H&S but doing safely from the ground is not acceptable.
I will go out and do the CS32 hopefully in the first month or two of next year (if there are any courses). I’m happy to do that like I said because at the end of the day it’s all knowledge and helpful in the long run.

Mark I have had a few drinks over the past few nights trying to resolve this.

you do right by going and doing CS32 you will learn something i am sure, as its been said before CS39 ok for dommestic arb but working in a school it has just become commercial and this is where having all the correct tickets pays, i worked with a arb crew last week taking a large ash down the climber had all the kit but when it came to chogging down the stem he did not have much idea about cutting big wood, cuts all over the place and nothing coming in line making hard work sliding discs off, 660 with 36" bar not the ideal saw stood on spikes when there was other smaller saws available like 441 18" bar and 461 20" bar, stem about 36" diameter so not massive at all, getting some one in is the only answer at the moment, we worked at a private school earl on this year and they wanted to know everything and copys of all certificates saws,chipper and first aid but because our first aid is +F we had to use there first aid team who would only have emergancy F/A at work, which we have and then the +F is added on, how do you explain that ? its just there rules and regulations, 

[David Dobedoe]

Perhaps this trend will continue and perhaps its a good thing?

 

Those commissioning work have a responsibility to ensure the contractors are competent to do the work safely. They carry liability if they do this. In turn we have a responsibility to ensure we are competent to the work we are doing.

 

Whilst I have no doubt there are many people on this forum who are quite capable of doing high quality work they are not qualified for. Qualifications make it much simpler to demonstrate competence especially to clients.

 

If this is a robust trend it should enable us to charge a premium to pay for that  qualified person which in turn helps us either afford the training / qualification or get a return on that investment.

 

For me this feels a lot like a repeat of what happened to the outdoor education industry. Outdoor education, like most things started with people with no formal industry specific training or qualifications. Not always but most of the time it worked quite well. Experience counted as adequate proof of competence for a long time and people were learning on the job.

 

As I remember it, the late 80's risk assessments started to appear. The resistance was massive... "You can't can't predict the unpredictable." "Our work is different" The situation is to dynamic"  Now they routinely work with risk assessment, why wouldn't they?

 

In the background, good but unqualified  instructors tried to justify their existence unable to afford the training and assessments and unsure how to work in the future. It seemed impossible.

 

Then in 1993 there was a terrible canoeing accident. ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lyme_Bay_canoeing_tragedy )

Following that and other incidents the Adventure Licencing Authority was formed. Once that was in place outdoor education centres needed a licence to work with young people. To obtain a licence a business inspection would include things like staff competence, systems for ensuring staff competence plus related issues like quality of equipment/inspection, vehicle suitability etc.

 

Now in 2018, if a child is going on an Activity experience the risk of totally incompetent, inexperienced, under resourced, non caring provision is greatly reduced because of this licence and most of the children are safer as a result.

 

Its not perfect but its much better than it was in helping customers choose safe provision.

 

During the transition there was a lot of discomfort in the industry and i have no doubt that some of the work force didn't survive due to a lack of ability  or opportunity to adapt. We should be able to learn from that and seriously look at industry wide supervision and professional development.

 

Perhaps Arb association approval is a step in the right direction? 

Perhaps the Arb association need to do something different?

Perhaps we need something else?

 

I don't have the answers but with an increasingly litigation aware society I suspect sooner or later we will need something and if we don't take control of it civil servants will after a number of high profile incidents become intolerable.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Thesnarlingbadger]

I do not disagree with this what so ever and it looks like I have to go out and get a CS32 at the end of the day. Not an issue at all, I with phone up the company who I have done most my training with on Monday and get a course booked for early next year.

I think that the only way to keep your head above water in a industry that is getting swamped by door knockers and flyer droppers is to adapted and get more tickets and more accreditation’s. As previously mentioned by David you can then price for this with the outlook that you are a professional outfit.
I’m happy to do these things to a degree but what I don’t want is to go out and obtain CS32 and for them to turn around and say well we would now like to see a CS34&35 because once you fell a tree it has tension and compression on a large scale, so could you just beep off and get that one.

This tickets are great and it’s never a bad thing to have in the arsenal but a ticket is only a bit of paper saying you have done this and isn’t as useful as 10 years working on the tools being put up against these situations on a regular bases.

[Boggle4137]

Why not download the test criteria for your courses that you already have. I'm sure city and guilds/lantra have that info on there websites. If memory serves I'm sure it breaks down each section of what you are being tested on.

[Pete Mctree]

How do people perceive cs 40 & cs41?  

If cs32 is not required to climb & dismantle trees, then what do you need?