Apprentice troubles

[Ian C]

Yes, but paying next to nothing for an apprentice will put even good ones off, especially when it barely covers their costs

 

 

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You could say that about any trade, an apprentice is an apprentice, there not wirth a lot until they can do all aspects of the job and get paid accordingly. I have a v good one at the minute, I pay him a bit more as he's 25 not 18 that the scheme was designed for. Too many young lads think there worth good money just because they get out of bed in a morning

 

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[walkerboys]

A good trainee will be more interested in the opportunity you are giving them than the money.

 

If their only interest is in the money they will soon leave to set up on their own once trained, so I'd not be interested in training them.

 

Sky huck is spot on dont spoil young lads they need to love the job to do it when I started out I could of earned more money at Wilson's ag contracting but the tree job was addictive lots to learn and lots of hard work. My younger brother is 18 and looking at different options he's come with me working since he was 15 and he loves the job he's not bothered weather dragging brash, carrying wood or lowering and to be fair I have enjoyed training him and I would train anuther lad if there keen and are willing to work and are not frightened of a shovel or a brush

[eggsarascal]

Six and two three's isn't it ?

Edited May 4, 2014 by eggsarascal

[White Noise]

My Eldest at 18 is an apprentice at an excellent local motorsport garage . He loves the job but struggles to pay his insurance and petrol on his wage . He tops up his monthly earnings delivering logs for me and also working in the local Spar Shop . If they want it they will do anything to make it happen

 

I have seen kids who are highly academic fail at the most simple of tasks . On the flip side I have seen kids who are considered daft for want of a better word excell at the same tasks ? If they are interested they will succeed

[Tree Cowboy]

It's a shame that some people (and I don't just think it's young people) don't have more sense.

 

I really don't think you should be offering more though Andy. If they don't see or appreciate your offer then they aren't the right candidate. There are plenty more young people desperate for work.

 

To add to some later posts; I am a trainee and I started by buying my own PPE and CS30/31 tickets then I harassed companies until I got an interview (It seems impossible to get a tree surgeon to remember to call you back). I started working for £50 a day for an 8ish hour day and I thought that was fair. I also started doing jobs for family and friends to gain experience.

 

If they've got tickets £50 a day for a trial period and £65 a day thereafter until you deem they are worth more. If they haven't got tickets put them on a day release college course and pay them apprenticeship wage (£4 an hour or something) it goes up to minimum wage after a year and you will be able to guide their learning from the start. If their not happy with that then they probably aren't committed to the job so much as the pay check. But everyone has different circumstances, and at the end of the day you've got to think, not 'What is an apprentice worth, what should I pay...' but rather "What is that apprentice worth to me?" Then talk to them and work it out. Because you don't want a young person desperate for work to just take the first job that comes along when they aren't really happy with the circumstances and then be looking to move straight away, or worse as soon as you've paid for their tickets!

 

Currently working with a company who I am on a trial period with and they asked me to invoice them. I don't know what the other lads get paid or what other people in my position would charge. I have several tickets but not a huge amount of experience. In previous jobs (in different industries) my standard rate has been £100 a day, but if I really respected the fact that the company trusted me to value myself and so I invoiced them at £60 a day and I think that £300 a week should be sufficient for anyone with minimal commitments i.e. young people and apprentices

[Andy Collins]

A good trainee will be more interested in the opportunity you are giving them than the money.

 

If their only interest is in the money they will soon leave to set up on their own once trained, so I'd not be interested in training them.

 

This is all very well, however, I know of many many good trainees who have been headhunted. It is more than just the £££s offered, but a whole package. If that whole package appears more attractive, he/she would be a fool to dismiss it. I was talking to a senior management friend at KierMG (now changed title, again) about this some time back, some companies make part of their business to train up new apprentices, fully aware that they will leave to go on to other companies who do not train. These "training" companies get paid well for putting the trainees through the system, and do not grudge the fact they will go on elsewhere. In my lads case, the company he worked for got tax relief on his training costs, for taking him as an apprentice, they got a sum from the training body as a form of compensation for his down time at the academy, and on succesful passing at the end, a very large lump sum award to the company, in the tens of thousands of £s. This is an incentive to the business to put further apprentices through the system. Ok, my lad did leave, to a much better job with more resposnsiblities, and more money, but he earned his position and had two companies head hunt him directly through the academy. Accepted business practise in the real world. Perhaps we as an industry could learn from other trades.

[skyhuck]

This is all very well, however, I know of many many good trainees who have been headhunted. It is more than just the £££s offered, but a whole package. If that whole package appears more attractive, he/she would be a fool to dismiss it. I was talking to a senior management friend at KierMG (now changed title, again) about this some time back, some companies make part of their business to train up new apprentices, fully aware that they will leave to go on to other companies who do not train. These "training" companies get paid well for putting the trainees through the system, and do not grudge the fact they will go on elsewhere. In my lads case, the company he worked for got tax relief on his training costs, for taking him as an apprentice, they got a sum from the training body as a form of compensation for his down time at the academy, and on succesful passing at the end, a very large lump sum award to the company, in the tens of thousands of £s. This is an incentive to the business to put further apprentices through the system. Ok, my lad did leave, to a much better job with more resposnsiblities, and more money, but he earned his position and had two companies head hunt him directly through the academy. Accepted business practise in the real world. Perhaps we as an industry could learn from other trades.

 

Not sure how any of this would apply to me or anyone running a Co my size?

[aspenarb]

This must be the only trade that allows a person to go on a two day course and then loose them into the open with a qualification for something in most cases they know nothing about. This should be a two or three year contractually tied in proper apprenticeship whereby they do their time with an affiliated company, when I say do their time I dont mean a few weeks work experience I mean doing a proper weeks work . Then after a meeting with an assessor to evaluate their performance both in the workplace and with the college should there be any form of qualification awarded. There might be just a tad more loyalty shown to those that have dedicated their time and effort training them before they whimsically jump ship in most cases for a few quid.

 

Bob

[Eddy_t]

My Eldest at 18 is an apprentice at an excellent local motorsport garage . He loves the job but struggles to pay his insurance and petrol on his wage . He tops up his monthly earnings delivering logs for me and also working in the local Spar Shop . If they want it they will do anything to make it happen

 

I have seen kids who are highly academic fail at the most simple of tasks . On the flip side I have seen kids who are considered daft for want of a better word excell at the same tasks ? If they are interested they will succeed

 

 

That's all good and true, but in this industry the days can be longer than expected, my day averages from 10 to 14 hours, so how would I fit in an extra job if I was an apprentice?

 

And whilst money isn't the only thing, some bosses you'd rather not work for as a trainee, I often think I'd hate to work for some on here, where as others sound great, and the ones I've met have confirmed my opinions of themselves. So ask yourself, did the trainee who buggered off think you were an ass who paid poor?

 

 

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[agg221]

My Eldest at 18 is an apprentice at an excellent local motorsport garage . He loves the job but struggles to pay his insurance and petrol on his wage . He tops up his monthly earnings delivering logs for me and also working in the local Spar Shop . If they want it they will do anything to make it happen

 

This is true, to a point, but where does he live and how much does it cost him (inc. food etc)?

 

If you go down the academic route there are student loans - yes you have to pay them back but at least they cover the short-term living costs. If you aren't subsidised by your parents, you don't have the luxury of doing something you enjoy - sometimes you just have to do what pays the bills. You can't just not eat or live anywhere for a few years

 

A lot depends on how employers view apprenticeships - is it education or is it employment? There seems to be a prevailing view that it is education which the employer is providing and hence the apprentice 'owes them'. This is hardly likely to lead to a working environment which the apprentice wants to stay in - not surprising they move on. Employers then seem to feel this is somehow disloyal, but if it has been treated as training, why wouldn't they move at the end of the training period?

 

Some simple calculations - £4/hr for 8hr days, 5days/wk = £160/wk = £8320 annual.

Some current costs (derived from the students I employ):

Round here, a basic single room in a shared house is £350/month = £4200 annual.

Bills will be extra, usually around £50/month = £600 annual.

Food can be done (just, but I challenge you to do it!) on £5/day = £1825 annual.

So basic costs £6625 annual.

 

This leaves £1625 annual for travel (you can only cut this to zero if you live in walking distance of both work and college), clothing, PPE etc and assumes you have absolutely zero social life. I lived like this for a year once when I was a student (figures were somewhat different in those days and I didn't have the option of either a grant or a student loan). Believe me, it is not healthy, either mentally or physically.

 

My view is that if you want the best, you have to offer the most attractive package. If that means you are prepared to pay a reasonable wage and offer training on top then you can have the pick of the apprentices and they are likely to carry on to become a good employee. If you feel that they owe you so you can give them less, they treat it as a period of training and then move on. If you take a negative attitude towards them, either by keeping on about how much worse they are than you at the job, or focussing on their weaknesses rather than their strengths, or simply treating them as inferior and giving them only the worst of the jobs, they may take it as part of the role but will move on to something better the first chance they get.

 

The above has been borne out by my own experience - I have taken on about 15 students and apprentices over the past 8yrs and employed six of them (didn't want to employ three, four others didn't want to be employed but delivered good service while they were with me, the other two I didn't have the need for at the end of their fixed term). I treat them as employees, whose contribution is as valuable as anyone else's, and pay them a good wage accordingly. I give them as much responsibility as I think they can handle given their experience and tend to push this early in their career. Only one has let me down and we had a polite but frank discussion which he found uncomfortable, and then he chose to move on.

 

For me, treating people professionally and trying to understand what is likely to be both viable and motivational has got good results.

 

Alec

 

edit. I think Eddy_t has just expressed the same view but rather more succinctly!