2 rope climbing are we sticking to the rules

[Mick Dempsey]

1 hour ago, MattyF said:

When I was at merrist wood as a teenager desperate to get in the industry I failed my climbing nptcs and my felling once , I genuinely felt like I was being made an example of and picked on in front of the rest of my tutor group being the youngest , also I was probably one of the only ones with previous experience and bad habits already , I did have a problem with this.... the tutor glen who was an ex marine and rumoured ex SbS took me to one side after he passed me and said out of the whole year only a very small percentage of people here would go on and make it in the industry and in his view I had what it takes , also in his view I needed bringing down a peg or two and have it drummed in to me the correct and safe way of doing things as if I carried on so cock sure I would probably hurt myself... I walked away from that feeling pissed off but 28 years later after never falling or cutting myself out a tree and having done some trees in situations I don't think many could of done , being able to pass this information on to give a good base to any one I have brought on in to the industry I owe the guy , and so do they !!
But I have seen and worked with folk though who in my opinion should have never of been passed ever in the first place... NPTCS have become far to lax.

When I was there 27 years ago there was an instructor who’s name escapes me, ex lollipop lady it was rumoured. 
 

He ushered me into the workshop on my own and said only a few were chosen  

He said I was to call him Big Daddy Bear and I was Desiree for the next 15 minutes. 
I came away feeling pissed off, still am if I’m honest. 

[nath]

19 minutes ago, AA Teccie (Paul) said:

Just a quick one to say, as anticipated, and certainly in the short-medium term (relatively, meaning 5-10 yrs maybe), we are aware, anecdotally, the industry hasn't embraced / engaged with the '2 rope working' (which, AAMOI is one option in achieving the use of a back-up system...but others are available) in the whole. 

 

HSE, as the regulator, have insisted on this, they actually wanted '2 ropes' at all times so other options equating to a backup system is a concession that we pushed for and that's what's written into the industry ICOP and TG1. Simplistically they saw IRATA as setting then benchmark and require us as an industry, collectively, to reach a comparable safe system of working...in their eyes. 

 

I don't climb these days but I do understand the resistance, and the rationale / reasons, I really do, but equally I have seen contractors / climbers who've embraced it and work effectively and efficiently, okay maybe a little slower but arguably a lot safer...arguably.

 

AA TG1 is a priced publication, some claw-back for the funds invested in writing it, and the ICOP, but the associated Safety Guide (AFAG 401 / 401 replacement) which gives some insight is a free download  

Arboricultural Association - Arboricultural Association Safety Guides

WWW.TREES.ORG.UK

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A range of tree related help and advice for members of the public as well as tree surgeons.

  

ATB and 1, 2 ..or 7 ropes, keep safe.

Cheers

Paul

 

As the voice of the uk Arb industry, did the AA at any point actually fight this or merely look for concessions? Simple yes or no answer would be great

[treevolution]

1 hour ago, MattyF said:

, I did have a problem with this.... the tutor glen who was an ex marine and rumoured ex SbS

I remember being taught by Glen. 

He did rub a lot of people up the wrong way at college but looking back I throught he was just trying to teach the safest way to carry out tree work. 

 

I don't climb on two ropes myself and have yet to work with a single climber that does. 

 

Do you have to use two lines if you work for an aa approved company. 

[Treetom15]

I have just finished working for a fairly large firm, AA approved etc. Not a single member of staff used 2 ropes, and this isn’t to knock any of them but it simply wasn’t practical. Especially when the majority of the work is crown lifts, small/medium section fells….

Personally, I have used 2 ropes whilst climbing but probably less than 10 times in my whole time climbing-as someone above said only when you’re traversing from an anchor point into an adjacent tree, or on a very long limb walk. 

I don’t understand why it isn’t just a recommendation, rather than insisted on, as surely the AA know 90% of contractors don’t use it or enforce it? 
 

Also regarding the AA, I’ve always been confused as to how a company can be arb approved when they only audit 1 team on 1 day? I know there must be more to it, but some of the worst working practice I’ve seen is from approved contractors……

[Timbertom111]

37 minutes ago, Treetom15 said:

 "Also regarding the AA, I’ve always been confused as to how a company can be arb approved when they only audit 1 team on 1 day? I know there must be more to it, but some of the worst working practice I’ve seen is from approved contractors……"

I definitely agree with this. I've been subbed in as a climber to get firms through an AA Aproval. Paid handsomely for it mind 😉

[treevolution]

Not only can you bring in a subbie climber for the AA test you can use a third party company to do all the paper work for you. 

 

As a company if you need to outsoure to gain AA approval how would you be able to keep the standards you needed to past. 

 

The AA really need to look into this as being approved is seen as a bit of a joke within the industry and seen as box ticking exercise rather then trying to encourage a higher standard of work and safety. 

[MattyF]

I remember being taught by Glen. 
He did rub a lot of people up the wrong way at college but looking back I throught he was just trying to teach the safest way to carry out tree work. 
 
I don't climb on two ropes myself and have yet to work with a single climber that does. 
 
Do you have to use two lines if you work for an aa approved company. 

He was a good trainer , at the time I could not stand the guy but I'm sure the feeling was mutual , but my point being if more students where drummed in to basic training it sticks and being mentored by arbs who know what they are doing helps.
The jobs pretty easy if you follow a few basic rules with out trying to to short cuts and keep it methodical , there is absolutely no need for two ropes unless the situation requires it and that's how I'll continue working for now.

[MattyF]

When I was there 27 years ago there was an instructor who’s name escapes me, ex lollipop lady it was rumoured. 
 
He ushered me into the workshop on my own and said only a few were chosen  
He said I was to call him Big Daddy Bear and I was Desiree for the next 15 minutes. 
I came away feeling pissed off, still am if I’m honest. 

That's good mick ... with out trying to make out I'm mint or something because your special too treacle is that only a small percentage of NPTC trained people go on in the industry more than 3 years , they should be more ruthless and kick out the dead wood to save accident stats that effect us trying to employ and maintain business

[5thelement]

2 hours ago, Stubby said:

I would say neither . You made that choice to do that . Just to be clear I did the same . 🙂

When you left the Tavern after lashings if frothing Mead served by a busty serving wench, where you perchance robbed by Dick Turpin on the way home?

[Mick Dempsey]

1 hour ago, MattyF said:

That's good mick ... with out trying to make out I'm mint or something because your special too treacle is that only a small percentage of NPTC trained people go on in the industry more than 3 years , they should be more ruthless and kick out the dead wood to save accident stats that effect us trying to employ and maintain business

I dunno, have you got stats for the leaving the industry with three years claim? I mean what is a small percentage?
 

Anyway, I’ll give you my experience to explain where I’m coming from in this argument.

 

When I did my ten weeker I was as green as the grass, starting from zero.

At the same time there were guys there who were already time served, just there to get their tickets.

Now there was a bit of a tendancy for a couple of instructors to concentrate on them, fine tune their skills rather than get me up a tree and move me along. 

 

I very nearly got left behind, but  I pulled it out the bag and got through it all.

I was still a million miles behind those guys and a long way from being of any use.

 

So I was the epitome of the 10 weeker with no practical ability, a Willians T22 and some rope.