Two Rope Working Consultation

[AA Teccie (Paul)]

4 minutes ago, MattyF said:

Has there been any interest or help offered from the ISA shown through this whole debacle?

Hi Matty, as there is no longer a 'UK & I' Chapter of the ISA no, in that context. However, many previous ISA Committee Members, and doubtless many ISA Certified Arborists, have responded to the consultation for which we are most grateful.

 

Further comments were received from around the world tbh and doubtless other ISA Chapter Reps did respond.

 

Cheers,
Paul

[stewmo]

aaaaagggghhhh, kinda.
 
However, the interpretation of the word 'practicable' in this context = wherever possible BUT it does not necessarily mean "2 ropes" as previously thought, although that may be an option in some cases (it is anticipated there will be 'omissions' from the "primary line + backup system" (2 lines) requirement, e.g. change-overs on ascent (ie short duration) but this has yet to be agreed / confirmed with HSE.
 
Hence please keep an open mind...but keep safe first using tried and tested techniques / systems.
 
Cheers,
Paul

Seriously though this does sound like a step in the right direction.

I also must ask for another consultation on the icop as, by the sounds of it, it will be a different beast. Although the response appears small I imagine it has been invaluable in moving forward. Surely we need to keep going...

[AA Teccie (Paul)]

1 minute ago, stewmo said:

 

 

Seriously though this does sound like a step in the right direction.

I also must ask for another consultation on the icop as, by the sounds of it, it will be a different beast. Although the response appears small I imagine it has been invaluable in moving forward. Surely we need to keep going...

 

Thanks for your post and I agree it is absolutely a step in the right direction.

 

Apologies, there will not be another ICoP consultation as the changes, in effect, place less of a burden on the operator / climber, plus it would further delay the production of the redrafted Technical Guide, i.e. what compliance should look like in practice.

 

As an industry your comments have been most valuable in the AA and the authors "changing tack", and in consultation with IRATA who have been very helpful, regarding the application of the (W@H) regulations. Thank you all.

 

The issue certainly is moving forward and several manufacturers and suppliers were at the event yesterday and challenged with 'researching and developing' equipment to help us so do.

 

Thanks again..

Paul

[Stephen Blair]

Let’s hope it’s not the guys who invented the Zig Zag !?

[Mark Bolam]

It’s probably the most positive outcome we could have expected.

Thanks for keeping us informed Paul.

 

It still grates on me though that the HSE are approaching it from the wrong direction, trying to make the industry safer by picking on the guys who are at least trying to do it right.

 

If they targeted the caravan dwellers and unticketed uninsured cowboys and wiped them off the arb map the whole industry would benefit.

Revenue would improve, training and standards would improve, so safety would improve.

We’re all sick of accident statistics lumping every fuckwit who cuts his arm off with his eBay saw after his ladder slips as a ‘tree surgeon’.

 

Sort it out HSE, there’s a whole world of oven ready prosecutions, and revenue from fines, out there for the taking.

 

IF you grow some balls.

[Stubby]

9 minutes ago, Mark Bolam said:

It’s probably the most positive outcome we could have expected.

Thanks for keeping us informed Paul.

 

It still grates on me though that the HSE are approaching it from the wrong direction, trying to make the industry safer by picking on the guys who are at least trying to do it right.

 

If they targeted the caravan dwellers and unticketed uninsured cowboys and wiped them off the arb map the whole industry would benefit.

Revenue would improve, training and standards would improve, so safety would improve.

We’re all sick of accident statistics lumping every fuckwit who cuts his arm off with his eBay saw after his ladder slips as a ‘tree surgeon’.

 

Sort it out HSE, there’s a whole world of oven ready prosecutions, and revenue from fines, out there for the taking.

 

IF you grow some balls.

Sums it up really .

[Jamie Jones]

On 05/02/2020 at 10:30, AA Teccie (Paul) said:

Re: ICoP

Hi Teccie Paul

Can you give us an update on the ICoP please... Has it been finalised and if it has can we have a link to it please?

I have been told (and it might just be a load of rubbish) that it is being re thought out because there have been issues in being applied to a working environment and that as a result of issues being raised HSE is back tracking on some aspects.

Can you give us any clarification on if there is any validity on the above comments?

Also when the ICoP if finalised will you be doing an ICoP on other aspects of the job: ie...
Safe Use of a Chainsaw from a Rope and Harness
Felling in sections (Process, Cuts for different tasks,)
Pruning (Polarding, Crown Raising and Reductions)
Rigging
Skylining
etc

The reason for asking is because if the AA is going to claim to be the go to industry body all these documents should be in place...

PS: I am not knocking the AA, but I would have thought all these documents / guides to good practice should be available.

So I thought you as a man in the know would be able to advise on what is happening.


 

Edited June 18, 2020 by Jamie Jones
grammer

[Mick Dempsey]

1 minute ago, Jamie Jones said:

Hi Teccie Paul

Can you give us an update on the ICoP please... Has it been finalised and if it has can we have a link to it please?

I have been told (and it might just be a load of rubbish) that it is being re thought out because there have been issues in being applied to a working environment and that as a result of issues being raise HSE is back tracking on some aspects.

Can you give us any clarification on if there is any validity on the above comments?

Also when the ICoP if finalised will you be doing an ICoP on other aspects of the job: ie...
Safe Use of a Chainsaw from a Rope and Harness
Felling in sections (Process, Cuts for different tasks,)
Pruning (Polarding, Crown Raising and Reductions)
Rigging
Skylining
etc

The reason for asking is because if the AA is going to claim to be the go to industry body all these documents should be in place...

PS: I am not knocking the AA, but I would have thought all these documents / guides to good practice should be available.

So I thought you as a man in the know would be able to advise on what is happening.


 

@AA Teccie (Paul)

[AA Teccie (Paul)]

21 minutes ago, Jamie Jones said:

Hi Teccie Paul

Can you give us an update on the ICoP please... Has it been finalised and if it has can we have a link to it please?

I have been told (and it might just be a load of rubbish) that it is being re thought out because there have been issues in being applied to a working environment and that as a result of issues being raised HSE is back tracking on some aspects.

Can you give us any clarification on if there is any validity on the above comments?

Also when the ICoP if finalised will you be doing an ICoP on other aspects of the job: ie...
Safe Use of a Chainsaw from a Rope and Harness
Felling in sections (Process, Cuts for different tasks,)
Pruning (Polarding, Crown Raising and Reductions)
Rigging
Skylining
etc

The reason for asking is because if the AA is going to claim to be the go to industry body all these documents should be in place...

PS: I am not knocking the AA, but I would have thought all these documents / guides to good practice should be available.

So I thought you as a man in the know would be able to advise on what is happening.


 

Hi there, I hope this works - here is the FINAL document agreed with HSE. 

Cookies check

EDITION.PAGESUITE-PROFESSIONAL.CO.UK

---

Guidance Notes - Industry Code of Practice for Arboriculture – Tree Work at Height

if not go to the website www.trees.org.uk and download from there.

 

To clarify the ICoP is a management / planning document detailing the industry's interpretation and application of the Work at Height Regs. (to clarify - whilst use of "2 ropes" is still an option, and 'preferred' in many respects, it is not obligatory...but you are expected to have a 'back-up' in place (in most instances...TG1 will explain more/how.)

The "how to do" manuals (Technical Guides 1-4) aimed at the operatives/climbers and covering many of the activities you cite will follow soon..."watch this space."

 

Hope this helps / clarifies things...and thanks Mick for the nudge (hope you're well.)

 

Regards all,

Paul

 

 

[Jamie Jones]

33 minutes ago, AA Teccie (Paul) said:

Hi there, I hope this works - here is the FINAL document agreed with HSE. 

Cookies check

EDITION.PAGESUITE-PROFESSIONAL.CO.UK

---

Guidance Notes - Industry Code of Practice for Arboriculture – Tree Work at Height

if not go to the website www.trees.org.uk and download from there.

 

To clarify the ICoP is a management / planning document detailing the industry's interpretation and application of the Work at Height Regs. (to clarify - whilst use of "2 ropes" is still an option, and 'preferred' in many respects, it is not obligatory...but you are expected to have a 'back-up' in place (in most instances...TG1 will explain more/how.)

The "how to do" manuals (Technical Guides 1-4) aimed at the operatives/climbers and covering many of the activities you cite will follow soon..."watch this space."

 

Hope this helps / clarifies things...and thanks Mick for the nudge (hope you're well.)

 

Regards all,

Paul

 

 

Hi Paul

Thanks for that..... Most helpful...

A quick question.... Can you give us any clarification on if there is any validity on the comments?...
"I have been told (and it might just be a load of rubbish) that the ICoP Double Rope and third system (ie flipline) is being re thought out because there have been issues in the double rope aspect being applied to a working environment and that as a result of issues being raised HSE is back tracking on some aspects".