Two Rope Working Consultation

[Khriss]

Surely We are missing point here, if climber falls out of tree you don't need to aerial rescue him anyway...... ?  k

Edited January 6, 2020 by Khriss
( I am more helpful on the job really, I do assure you... ;) )

[kevinjohnsonmbe]

14 hours ago, jfc said:

Hi Folks,

 

I was trying to look up two rope systems and came accross this stuff from HSE. It was all new to me but others a probably familiar with it.

 

In my opinion this contains some dynamite critisism of 2 rope working and it is produced by HSE. It is still live on their website (there's not caveat that this is now out of date or superseded by the new guidance).

 

www.hse.gov.uk/agriculture/pdf/wahreport.pdf

 

Section 7.6.2 Sectional dismantling using ropes.

'If a second high anchor point was used a number of strengths and weaknesses have been identified (see Evaluation1 Appendix 2). In addition the following  were highlighted:

Increased risk of accidental removal of second high anchor with catastrophic consequences for climber.

Reducing the availabilty of rigging points separate to the climber high anchor.

Greater confusion of ropes within the crown.

Much greater chance of lowering ropes running across climbing lines'

 

Section 8.

...where two rope working is not currently supported by best practice, evaluation has shown,that any improvements are small and and outweighed in practical terms by increased effort, time and cost or combinations thereof.

 

further on 

 

...'a dogmatic approach to work techniques without the opportunity for individual asessment and modification of technique would make arboricultural work in trees more difficult and in some cases increase risk.'

 

Look at Appendix 2

This section basically risk assesses rope techniques in different situations, and the conclusion for many of these is that 2 ropes are not recommended.

Evaluation 2 medium trees with congested crowns.

Evaluation 4

Evaluation 5 (maybe)

Evaluation 6.

 

I think this report contains loads of evidence against 2 rope working, hse certainly haven't produced anything more up to date that contadicts this. If you can manage to read more of this stuff please read this and pick out important pieces and use it to critique the ICoP.

 

Happy reading.

 

jan.

That just about summarises many of the issues that have been raised AND it serves as ‘home grown’ contradiction to the current line of thought. Doubtless the (seemingly well informed) work to produce that piece has been ‘lost in the files’ and hasn’t been considered by the bright spark promoting the current thinking. 
 

Appears like contradictory information from HSE and an absence of the necessary will to oppose from AA. 
 

That’s just the way it looks to me....
 

 

[TIMON]

That just about summarises many of the issues that have been raised AND it serves as ‘home grown’ contradiction to the current line of thought. Doubtless the (seemingly well informed) work to produce that piece has been ‘lost in the files’ and hasn’t been considered by the bright spark promoting the current thinking. 

 

Appears like contradictory information from HSE and an absence of the necessary will to oppose from AA. 

 

That’s just the way it looks to me....

 

 

 

 

 

 

Same here.

 

I printed a copy off today. I can’t understand why the HSE are completely going against the findings of a group of experts they commissioned themselves to look into how viable 2 rope working was/is.

 

 

 

[The avantgardener]

8 minutes ago, TIMON said:

 

 

 

 

Same here.

 

I printed a copy off today. I can’t understand why the HSE are completely going against the findings of a group of experts they commissioned themselves to look into how viable 2 rope working was/is.

 

 

 

Combine this with industry professionals expertly demonstrating how safe the current systems are when used correctly and the mind just boggles.

[Mark Bolam]

Handy ammo to justify using one line on your RA though....

[Bing!]

Any input from an AA rep regarding the above????

Should we just copy and paste this straight to the ICOP questionnaire, maybe start packing away the duplicate kit we've all had to buy.....

[Marc]

3 minutes ago, The avantgardener said:

Combine this with industry professionals expertly demonstrating how safe the current systems are when used correctly and the mind just boggles.

Indeed, and we have absolutely no say in this... 

Just how the icop can be worded better.

6 minutes ago, Bing! said:

Any input from an AA rep regarding the above????

Should we just copy and paste this straight to the ICOP questionnaire, maybe start packing away the duplicate kit we've all had to buy.....

The AA rep is named in the HSE report from 16 years ago,,,

[jfc]

Handy ammo to justify using one line on your RA though....

Yep, something along the lines of...

after careful consideration and RA, single line utilised as recommeded by HSE wahreport (2004). [emoji2] [emoji2] [emoji2]

[jfc]

The report I found actually reads like someone who climbs wrote it. They have looked at the implications in a variety of situations (some of which do recommend 2 ropes), but many others don't. They have also identified many of the concerns we raised here. Good on the HSE producing such a useful document. [emoji12]

[dumper]

The Comments from the AA are deafening