Making the news today....

[Mull]

A fb post I read today

You are right to mention "pasture raised...produced in ways that can be maintained in perpetuity..." because when the meat is raised through grain feed (and the overwhelming majority of that produced in the US is) then the energy ineficiency of grain-fed meat production is just terrible and the ecological consequences are destructive.

According to Mark Shepard, in the book, "Restoration Agriculture":

"What is not so obvious is the energy loss when annual grains are fed to livestock. On average only 10 percent of any organism's food energy is converted into that creature's body. The remainder is used as fuel for the creature's metabolic processes, is dissipated as body heat, or is excreted. This phenomena has been researched and documented extremely well for hundreds of years and has led to what is called the tropic pyramid...

If a human being eats 10lbs of corn directly, approximately only one pound of that corn becomes (nutritionally deficient) human flesh and bone. The remainder is used as the energy for metabolism or is flushed down the sewer. If a cow eats 10lbs of corn, approximately one pound becomes cow, or in this case, beef steer.

Where the implications of the tropic pyramid become sinister is when human beings eat meat that was raised on grain. At this point the human being becomes a secondary consumer. Once again it is only approximately 10 percent of the energy of the previous tropic level that becomes converted into the biomass of the consumer. A human being eating beef would consume 10lbs of beef to build one pound of human flesh. This is the trophic level argument where vegans are absolutely correct. If a human eats one pound of corn-fed beef, they are actually consuming 10lbs. worth of corn. If it takes 10lbs. of beef to make one pound of human, that means that a corn-fed beef eating person is eating the equivalent of 100lbs. of corn in order to gain one pound...

Now according to our tropic level calculations, in order to get 1,050 lbs. of bovine, we need to feed it approximately 10,500 lbs of corn. For that 10,500 lbs of corn, all we get is a lousy 569 lbs of meat. Live weight to carcass yield-to-edible meat makes the trophic loss even more extreme."

In a rivalry, like the one going on here: "vegan vs non-vegan", the complexities of reality become simplified to magnify the dichotomy. Reality is that in Vermont (not a dryland), where you live, Seth, it's easier to obtain properly raised pasture grazed meat. What an outstanding farming culture there is in Vermont! But in many places (the entire corn belt of the US, which includes where I live, south western Kentucky), that is not the case. Overwhelmingly the meat in distribution is grain fed; you've got to go looking for the right farmer. It's in this disastrous grain-based conventional agriculture (sadly supported and spread by the extension arms of most US universities), that US vegans become confused, in part because they are unaccustomed to witnessing livestock raised in sustainable agricultural systems. It's not like we're blessed with herders like Dalmas Tiampati around here; neither are there many farmers like Peter Allen or Mark Shepard--yet. Most meat in distribution represents an ecological disaster in our current food system.

Believe me, I'm trying to work for these changes. But the young farmer today is up against systemic pressures, including access to land in a corporate consolidated agricultural economy. It's going to take a sustained social movement in all of our regions, collaborations with regional institutions, to steer the course of change over the next generation. In my opinion, land use can be redesigned in a holistic context of the place and circumstances to support a vibrant local food network. In the cities, primarily vegetables, herbs, flowers, mushrooms, and tree crops; maybe some chickens. In the small rural properties, annual and perennial crops, tree crops, mushrooms, fowl. In the larger rural landscapes and especially the drylands, holistic planned grazing, multi-species grazing, and perennial polyculture.

Appropriate design, and the food system generated from it, is contextual to so many complex realities.

Many thanks for your efforts, Seth. Especially those having to do with Soil 4 Climate and with Dalmas and the Massai in Kenya. [emoji172]

[Mark Bolam]

Eggs you bastard, I taught you to climb!

Well, tried!

JRM is a very interesting man.

Certainly ferociously intelligent, and impressed me greatly with his honesty and directness when answering questions.

The 6 child thing doesn’t sit that well with me, I feel slightly guilty having 3 (but the last 2 were twins), but his stance on who is paying for them is pretty admirable.

He is a massive millionaire posho, but I can think of far worse people to lead the country.

If he was my MP he’d get my vote.

Intelligence seems to be somewhat underrated at the moment.

[difflock]

JRM is probably too decent a human being to be a successful PM, a job requiring some soicopathic/psycopathic tendancies,

applied purely for the good of ones country you understand.

But to lead any country one must have little or no concerns about causing death or suffering for individuals, or particular groups of indivduals, including members of ones own political party.

Simply to lead, one must have the capacity to be ruthless, when required.

imho

mth

[kevinjohnsonmbe]

8 hours ago, Mull said:

A fb post I read today

You are right to mention "pasture raised...produced in ways that can be maintained in perpetuity..." because when the meat is raised through grain feed (and the overwhelming majority of that produced in the US is) then the energy ineficiency of grain-fed meat production is just terrible and the ecological consequences are destructive.

According to Mark Shepard, in the book, "Restoration Agriculture":

"What is not so obvious is the energy loss when annual grains are fed to livestock. On average only 10 percent of any organism's food energy is converted into that creature's body. The remainder is used as fuel for the creature's metabolic processes, is dissipated as body heat, or is excreted. This phenomena has been researched and documented extremely well for hundreds of years and has led to what is called the tropic pyramid...

If a human being eats 10lbs of corn directly, approximately only one pound of that corn becomes (nutritionally deficient) human flesh and bone. The remainder is used as the energy for metabolism or is flushed down the sewer. If a cow eats 10lbs of corn, approximately one pound becomes cow, or in this case, beef steer.

Where the implications of the tropic pyramid become sinister is when human beings eat meat that was raised on grain. At this point the human being becomes a secondary consumer. Once again it is only approximately 10 percent of the energy of the previous tropic level that becomes converted into the biomass of the consumer. A human being eating beef would consume 10lbs of beef to build one pound of human flesh. This is the trophic level argument where vegans are absolutely correct. If a human eats one pound of corn-fed beef, they are actually consuming 10lbs. worth of corn. If it takes 10lbs. of beef to make one pound of human, that means that a corn-fed beef eating person is eating the equivalent of 100lbs. of corn in order to gain one pound...

Now according to our tropic level calculations, in order to get 1,050 lbs. of bovine, we need to feed it approximately 10,500 lbs of corn. For that 10,500 lbs of corn, all we get is a lousy 569 lbs of meat. Live weight to carcass yield-to-edible meat makes the trophic loss even more extreme."

In a rivalry, like the one going on here: "vegan vs non-vegan", the complexities of reality become simplified to magnify the dichotomy. Reality is that in Vermont (not a dryland), where you live, Seth, it's easier to obtain properly raised pasture grazed meat. What an outstanding farming culture there is in Vermont! But in many places (the entire corn belt of the US, which includes where I live, south western Kentucky), that is not the case. Overwhelmingly the meat in distribution is grain fed; you've got to go looking for the right farmer. It's in this disastrous grain-based conventional agriculture (sadly supported and spread by the extension arms of most US universities), that US vegans become confused, in part because they are unaccustomed to witnessing livestock raised in sustainable agricultural systems. It's not like we're blessed with herders like Dalmas Tiampati around here; neither are there many farmers like Peter Allen or Mark Shepard--yet. Most meat in distribution represents an ecological disaster in our current food system.

Believe me, I'm trying to work for these changes. But the young farmer today is up against systemic pressures, including access to land in a corporate consolidated agricultural economy. It's going to take a sustained social movement in all of our regions, collaborations with regional institutions, to steer the course of change over the next generation. In my opinion, land use can be redesigned in a holistic context of the place and circumstances to support a vibrant local food network. In the cities, primarily vegetables, herbs, flowers, mushrooms, and tree crops; maybe some chickens. In the small rural properties, annual and perennial crops, tree crops, mushrooms, fowl. In the larger rural landscapes and especially the drylands, holistic planned grazing, multi-species grazing, and perennial polyculture.

Appropriate design, and the food system generated from it, is contextual to so many complex realities.

Many thanks for your efforts, Seth. Especially those having to do with Soil 4 Climate and with Dalmas and the Massai in Kenya.

Does it expand to the lb for lb growth comparison for pasture raised beef Mull?

 

It should be obvious (to a blind man) that ‘fed’ rather than grazed cattle is madness, but then so is grazed cattle madness - just slightly less so than fed. 

 

Vast expanses of mono-culture grass with flail cut hedges (like the patch work fields that people have come to recognise as a ‘rural landscape’) are no justification for NFU to claim farmers are the ‘custodians of the countryside’ just because they get paid to set aside a couple of acres of unproductive land and call it “stewardship.”  

 

Eat less meat is the only way to check the industrial exploitation of the environment. Farming is a profit driven, business always seeking greater output and consuming more resources - just like any other manufacturing business. The main difference is farmers use baler twine to hold their trousers up and keep the gate closed whilst telling everybody that they know best how to ‘manage’ the land whilst a factory boss uses a Gucci belt, has electric gates and keeps quiet about the resources he uses and the pollution he generates....

 

Top of the morning to ya by the way....

 

 

[the village idiot]

7 hours ago, Mark Bolam said:

If he was my MP he’d get my vote.

Intelligence seems to be somewhat underrated at the moment

To be a fully commited Catholic you are required to believe that the world will end at any time with the return of the messiah. This end will be glorious, with all those choosing not to believe in the ridiculous being sent to an eternity in Hell.

 

This is not the sort of person I want involved in any way whatsoever with the forward planning of society.

 

JRM gets to vote on very important issues, his religious convictions determine how he votes.

 

He believes that a combination of two cells has the same rights to life as a living human being. He is opposed to abortion even in the cases of rape and incest.

 

He is opposed to giving terminally ill people the right to choose when to bring their own life to a close.

 

He is opposed to giving gay couples the right to marry.

 

He is presumably also against condom use in Aids riddled Africa.

 

These stances are all religiously motivated, and make him a monster in my book.

 

Pubicly not believing in God is a serious impediment to getting the most important job in the country. This is crazy given what people of true faith actually believe. Rees Mog obviously has every right to hold these views, but I hope that people will deem him unfit to govern, given the sort of ghastly society he personally wants to see.

Edited February 4, 2018 by the village idiot

[skyhuck]

24 minutes ago, the village idiot said:

To be a fully commited Catholic you are required to believe that the world will end at any time with the return of the messiah. This end will be glorious, with all those choosing not to believe in the ridiculous being sent to an eternity in Hell.

 

This is not the sort of person I want involved in any way whatsoever with the forward planning of society.

 

JRM gets to vote on very important issues, his religious convictions determine how he votes.

 

He believes that a combination of two cells has the same rights to life as a living human being. He is opposed to abortion even in the cases of rape and incest.

 

He is opposed to giving terminally ill people the right to choose when to bring their own life to a close.

 

He is opposed to giving gay couples the right to marry.

 

He is presumably also against condom use in Aids riddled Africa.

 

These stances are all religiously motivated, and make him a monster in my book.

 

Pubicly not believing in God is a serious impediment to getting the most important job in the country. This is crazy given what people of true faith actually believe. Rees Mog obviously has every right to hold these views, but I hope that people will deem him unfit to govern, given the sort of ghastly society he personally wants to see.

IME, intelligent religious people are very good at "double think" they have the ability to truly believe two opposing things at the same time. We all do it to an extent, I think you yourself do it with regard free will etc.

 

He will voice his beliefs, but actually not follow through, he can easily use public will to do whats right, imo.

 

 

[felixthelogchopper]

8 hours ago, Mark Bolam said:

Eggs you bastard, I taught you to climb!

Well, tried!

JRM is a very interesting man.

Certainly ferociously intelligent, and impressed me greatly with his honesty and directness when answering questions.

The 6 child thing doesn’t sit that well with me, I feel slightly guilty having 3 (but the last 2 were twins), but his stance on who is paying for them is pretty admirable.

He is a massive millionaire posho, but I can think of far worse people to lead the country.

If he was my MP he’d get my vote.

Intelligence seems to be somewhat underrated at the moment.

The two are connected. IIRC, he married money.

[Mark Bolam]

He did indeed Al, which, given his looks, is a good measure of the man’s intelligence.

[Mark Bolam]

He might just have a massive knob, like.

[felixthelogchopper]

34 minutes ago, the village idiot said:

To be a fully commited Catholic you are required to believe that the world will end at any time with the return of the messiah. This end will be glorious, with all those choosing not to believe in the ridiculous being sent to an eternity in Hell.

 

This is not the sort of person I want involved in any way whatsoever with the forward planning of society.

 

JRM gets to vote on very important issues, his religious convictions determine how he votes.

 

He believes that a combination of two cells has the same rights to life as a living human being. He is opposed to abortion even in the cases of rape and incest.

 

He is opposed to giving terminally ill people the right to choose when to bring their own life to a close.

 

He is opposed to giving gay couples the right to marry.

 

He is presumably also against condom use in Aids riddled Africa.

 

These stances are all religiously motivated, and make him a monster in my book.

 

Pubicly not believing in God is a serious impediment to getting the most important job in the country. This is crazy given what people of true faith actually believe. Rees Mog obviously has every right to hold these views, but I hope that people will deem him unfit to govern, given the sort of ghastly society he personally wants to see.

He also voted against compulsory smoke alarms in rented properties, making sure rented properties reached a basic level of being fit for human occupation and also to reduce disability payments. Don't know what his issue with disabled people is but I would imagine his vote on the rented property issues may have been slightly influenced by his property portfolio. All in all, not very Christian values IMO.