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[difflock]

55 minutes ago, donnk said:

race is a red herring really. Culture is the driving factor.

 

Take an African out of any of the dumps in Africa at birth and raise them in any of the western countries and they do no better or worse than any white european. Colour really doesnt matter.

 

Politicans need to change cultures abroad to make them like the successful ones. Historically this used to be done by war, invading killing their leaders and replacing them.

 

Not sure how this is to be done now with failed states like pakistan. The yanks are dabbling with it by droning people.

Funny enough I was earlier tempted to refer to "breeding" as being more important than race, always imagining falling in with a well-bred Nigerian lassie, at Uni fer instance, and her parents reaction to moi, when she took me home and introduced me.

"Get that white trash out of here" would be about the gist of it.

But I can find that amusing and not be offended by the underlying rationale.

[Stere]

 Western wealth  is built on offshore cheap labour and cheap natural resource extraction from rest of the world driven mostly by China nowadays.

 

Seems like having a country with alot of valuable natural resources is  often a a curse rather than an asset with bad governace.

 

Cosumerism driven wealth like the "americain surburbian dream"  can't work for whole world as there isn't enough resources for everyone to "lvl up"

 

 

 

 

 

[Khriss]

1 hour ago, Stere said:

 Western wealth  is built on offshore cheap labour and cheap natural resource extraction from rest of the world driven mostly by China nowadays.

 

Seems like having a country with alot of valuable natural resources is  often a a curse rather than an asset with bad governace.

 

Cosumerism driven wealth like the "americain surburbian dream"  can't work for whole world as there isn't enough resources for everyone to "lvl up"

 

 

 

 

 

Venezuela is a good example there.  K

[donnk]

1 hour ago, Stere said:

 Western wealth  is built on offshore cheap labour and cheap natural resource extraction from rest of the world driven mostly by China nowadays.

 

Seems like having a country with alot of valuable natural resources is  often a a curse rather than an asset with bad governace.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

saudi, kuwait, dubai etc etc dont seem to have a problem with cash. They have a problem with culture.

 

Norway on the other hand, oil rich, doesnt seem to be causing problems to the rest of the world in the same way.

[Youngstu]

7 hours ago, donnk said:

Take an African out of any of the dumps in Africa at birth and raise them in any of the western countries and they do no better or worse than any white european. Colour really doesnt matter.

This certainly should be the case all other things being equal, but the current global protests are in response to the fact that unfortunately it doesn't always work this way, as getting the same opportunities isn't always possible for people from different backgrounds for many reasons and "race" can be very influential on the opportunities available. 

 

7 hours ago, donnk said:

Politicans need to change cultures abroad to make them like the successful ones. Historically this used to be done by war, invading killing their leaders and replacing them.

 

which politicians should be doing this, those of the countries in question or politicians of "successful" countries? In recent years the attempted changing of politicians by western powers doesn't seem to have had a particularly successful outcome. Some really nasty dictators are now gone but the countries are still in chaos. 

7 hours ago, donnk said:

Not sure how this is to be done now with failed states like pakistan. The yanks are dabbling with it by droning people.

What has caused Pakistan and similar countries to be a "failed state"? If it's their culture, what has caused that culture to develop in that way? 

My thinking is that the culture of many of these countries is massively influenced by their history and for a lot of them it is a colonial history, which unfortunately involved the colonial powers taking everything they could from their colonies and transferring the resources and wealth back to Europe. Many of the countries did make some gains in term of development, but I doubt that many benefited in terms of wealth as when the colonisers went the wealth generated went with them. 

[Puffingbilly413]

6 hours ago, Youngstu said:

What has caused Pakistan and similar countries to be a "failed state"? If it's their culture, what has caused that culture to develop in that way? 

My thinking is that the culture of many of these countries is massively influenced by their history and for a lot of them it is a colonial history, which unfortunately involved the colonial powers taking everything they could from their colonies and transferring the resources and wealth back to Europe. Many of the countries did make some gains in term of development, but I doubt that many benefited in terms of wealth as when the colonisers went the wealth generated went with them. 

Is Pakistan a failed state? It still has a functioning government and society (different from a Western model, true, but still there).

 

Pakistan's position on one of the fault-lines of the Cold War has certainly shaped where it is now (the West supporting Afghan Mujahideen during the Russian occupation and relying on the AF-PAK border for a lot of that support 'v' a complete about turn and the Pakistani ISI switching fire to countering Western intervention against the Taliban to present day).

 

The partition of India after WW2 (in the main as a result of British promises to grant it for support against the Axis powers) did leave a lot of wealth in the 'new' states.  Granted, the gap between the poor and the wealthly in the Indian subcontinent is worse than in the West, but there's still a lot of wealth there.  Whether that has anything to do with a colonial past or nothing at all - who knows. 

 

Sorry - starting to disappear down historical alleyways.  Pakistan is definitely its own country - it gets on with or without foreign support / interference and can generally choose its own way, even against the might of US 'diplomacy'.  Others may disagree.  I just like talking about history...

[Stere]

Millionaires but also mass poverty. The goverment may have nuclear weapons but it is also weak with a huge  corruption problem and  I don't think taxes are collected hence no money to spend on modern public infrastructure, sanitation roads etc.

 

Contrasting  the huge differences in developments between  China and India is also interesting.

[Youngstu]

7 hours ago, Puffingbilly413 said:

Is Pakistan a failed state? It still has a functioning government and society (different from a Western model, true, but still there).

 

Pakistan's position on one of the fault-lines of the Cold War has certainly shaped where it is now (the West supporting Afghan Mujahideen during the Russian occupation and relying on the AF-PAK border for a lot of that support 'v' a complete about turn and the Pakistani ISI switching fire to countering Western intervention against the Taliban to present day).

 

The partition of India after WW2 (in the main as a result of British promises to grant it for support against the Axis powers) did leave a lot of wealth in the 'new' states.  Granted, the gap between the poor and the wealthly in the Indian subcontinent is worse than in the West, but there's still a lot of wealth there.  Whether that has anything to do with a colonial past or nothing at all - who knows. 

 

Sorry - starting to disappear down historical alleyways.  Pakistan is definitely its own country - it gets on with or without foreign support / interference and can generally choose its own way, even against the might of US 'diplomacy'.  Others may disagree.  I just like talking about history...

Absolutely! I assume Pakistan  was chosen as an example of a failed state as it follows its own path and it's not always in line with what Western powers would like.  

For some countries, the wars and mistreatment that lead to their formation or are key parts of their history are often scars that run deep and often influence how they are run and what their ambitions are for their future, and for some this includes taking back what they believe is rightfully theirs.

[donnk]

27 minutes ago, Youngstu said:

Absolutely! I assume Pakistan  was chosen as an example of a failed state as it follows its own path and it's not always in line with what Western powers would like.  

For some countries, the wars and mistreatment that lead to their formation or are key parts of their history are often scars that run deep and often influence how they are run and what their ambitions are for their future, and for some this includes taking back what they believe is rightfully theirs.

The Pakistan government is increasingly silencing critical voices of journalists and activists under the pretext of national security. Enforced disappearances, extrajudicial killings, and torture take place with impunity, while security forces exercise undue political influence over civilian authorities. Blasphemy-related violence against religious minorities, fostered in part by government persecution and discriminatory laws, is frequent. Authorities have failed to establish adequate protection or accountability for abuses against women and girls, including “honour” killings and forced marriage. Over 490 people have been executed since the government ended an unofficial ban on the death penalty in late 2014.

 

But yes your right its our fault for ceasing British Rule in 1947.

 

Pakistan | Country Page | World | Human Rights Watch

WWW.HRW.ORG

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The Pakistan government is increasingly silencing critical voices of journalists and activists under the pretext of...

 

 

[donnk]

Then another paragon , Bangladesh who top the world in only one area.

 

Child Marriage.

 

Yup you got it, our fault again probably.

 

Bangladesh | Country Page | World | Human Rights Watch

WWW.HRW.ORG

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The Bangladesh government has intensified its crackdown on civil society, media, and critics. Authorities have killed and...

 

 

Edited June 11, 2020 by donnk