Top Handles and proof of training.

[Pete Mctree]

What is wrong with supplying proof of competence I.e. Tickets before purchase?

 

Oh & eddy-t, that is the most ill considered & nieve post I have read for a while. The basic ergonomics & handling properties of a climbing saw make both the chance of kickback with incorrect technique high, but also the compact nature means that when it does occur it is difficult to control.

[adw]

I do not think anybody is saying qualified climbers are not to use top handle saws, what is being said is the migration of top handle saws into the hobby/consumer market, have no doubt that this type of user will hold the log with one hand and the saw with the other, some countries have already banned top handle saws, so do not think this could happen in the UK

[peatff]

I bought a cheap 25cc Chinese top handle from eBay for a tree in the back garden to save me from having a heart attack using the bow saw. It's a big Birch and there's still some to come down, it had 4 trunks and I'm thinning it down to one. I have other dangerous tools like drills and circular and jig saw which I use one handed and have not been trained but I still have all my limbs and digits attached. I believe that some common sense and a few YouTube videos will get me through most things.

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7oCDcTxFUkk[/ame]

[scotspine1]

I can't tell if you're being serious Tim.

 

I want one though!

 

I'm sure I mentioned it before on the forum a few years back, it's based on the Homelite XL2, it was the first saw I used as a kid in the 80s, adapting it to the 346xp was relatively easy but I had to get a specialist engineer to make it work and function properly on a daily basis. I wouldn't go bigger than the 346xp though, although it is possible, so in theory you could have a twin trigger top handled 660.

 

[Joe Newton]

I'm sure I mentioned it before on the forum a few years back, it's based on the Homelite XL2, it was the first saw I used as a kid in the 80s, adapting it to the 346xp was relatively easy but I had to get a specialist engineer to make it work and function properly on a daily basis. I wouldn't go bigger than the 346xp though, although it is possible, so in theory you could have a twin trigger top handled 660.

 

 

 

 

 

I need to see this.

[treequip]

I do not think anybody is saying qualified climbers are not to use top handle saws, what is being said is the migration of top handle saws into the hobby/consumer market, have no doubt that this type of user will hold the log with one hand and the saw with the other, some countries have already banned top handle saws, so do not think this could happen in the UK

 

The issue of top handled saws is not relevant if they are used in the hobby market. The "threat" comes from the HSE and their remit doesn't cover domestic use.

 

The issue of a potential ban is also a bit of a hollow threat. In order to make such a ban reality the government would have to mobilise some serious legislation. It remains to be seen if the government would have the political will and budget to see it through, particularly given the fact that last time around it was all a big bluff.

[GardenKit]

I guess we have to ask if this AEA have the power or authority to ban the sale of top handled saws and if their banning would be a good thing when climbers would then be forced to use ground saws for limbing and pruning work which in itself would cause more injury than the use of a few uneducated people using top handled saws in an unsuitable manner.

The AEA is not the bad guy here Steve, They are the association to which many manufacturers, dealers and distributors belong. They fight the corner of the industry with the government bodies, they fight the corner of the government with the industry, They fight for change where needed and against it where not.

The AEA do not have the power or authority to bring about a ban and they would not wish to, its not in the interest of their members, the industry who make and sell the saws.

 

All they are doing in this announcement in the trade press is reminding the industry of an old code of self regulation that has worked well for years but is slipping now and this slip has been noticed by the MSA's and flagged up for attention in government circles. The AEA are being the good guys.

 

As ADW says, the sale of top handles in some countries has been banned already, I believe the Netherlands are one such country, we do not want to follow suit.

 

This announcement is a warning to dealers and distributors to change their ways and stop the decline in self regulation.

But the customers also need to appreciate the threat and change their ways if we want this matter to drop below the radar again.

 

It will be noticed that truly professional arborists have absolutely no problem with this, they all have the training certs to produce. The ones who moan loudest are the 'smaller guys', the 'Jack of all trades" who does a bit of mowing, a bit of strimming and a bit of tree work. They mostly do a wonderful job, but many are working on a tight budget and although they want the saw, they are not prepared to do the tickets. They are the ones who shout that this is not fair.

[Eddy_t]

Its idiotic arguments like this that will lead to a ban.

 

Holding a saw from the top with only one hand cannot possible have the same control as holding a saw with both hands, where one of the handles is well back giving mechanical advantage.

 

I've been been one handing 020's for 20 years, I accept they are dangerous, this is probably why I have not cut myself.

 

 

 

What is wrong with supplying proof of competence I.e. Tickets before purchase?

 

Oh & eddy-t, that is the most ill considered & nieve post I have read for a while. The basic ergonomics & handling properties of a climbing saw make both the chance of kickback with incorrect technique high, but also the compact nature means that when it does occur it is difficult to control.

 

 

You both mentioned technique! Work positioning is key for safe use. In every single case where I have used a saw with a single hand, I have positioned myself away from the line of fire, should kick-back occur.

 

The more you try to decry the tool for being dangerous, the more likely it is to be banned. Look at the amount of safety features fitted in the last 30-40 years, chain catchers, rear hand guards, chainbrakes, inertia chainbrakes, triple chainbrakes, safety chains, ballistic type gloves. The issue that needs addressing is technique, if you add more protection, the operator will take a riskier approach as they become complacent with a greater safety features

[GardenKit]

The issue of top handled saws is not relevant if they are used in the hobby market. The "threat" comes from the HSE and their remit doesn't cover domestic use.

 

The issue of a potential ban is also a bit of a hollow threat. In order to make such a ban reality the government would have to mobilise some serious legislation. It remains to be seen if the government would have the political will and budget to see it through, particularly given the fact that last time around it was all a big bluff.

 

I don't believe that this particular threat is coming from the HSE, but from the Market Surveillance Authorities, whoever they may be. They have noticed a growing trend for sales of top handle saws via distance and internet sales. They can only assume by the nature of the saws sold (i.e brands) that these are going straight to the domestic market, without proof of competency, which goes against the code of practice. They have flagged this up for attention.

 

Also, I would not write the threat off as 'hollow', the ban has been made in some countries already.

 

The biggest problem lies with the dealers however. Most dealers toe the line, but there are also a few who think the rules do not apply to them, or are oblivious to the rules anyway (They do not all read the trade press).

The largest numbers of saws sold without proof of training are sold 'online' though, and these are the sales that will have an impact on the debate which may eventually lead to a ban.

[Couldyajust]

You can use it with one hand, freeing the other hand up for amputation.

 

Lightweight domestic saws obviously tempt stupid people to use them single handed too.

 

I have seen a domestic user with no experience of chainsaws hacking a conifer with an Efco MT 3500 using it single handed above head height off a ladder (despite him being scared of heights so not confident on the ladder either) with his PPE left in the shed as he said "it's only a couple of branches so not worth putting it on".

 

In that instance I intervened much to the relief of his wife who was footing the ladder mobile phone in hand ready to call an ambulance.