Problems and issues this industry faces and how to deal with them.

[openspaceman]

13 minutes ago, Mick Dempsey said:

Unlikely. Very small outfit.Though in fairness I learnt the job there. It was very 1950s but all the basics were the same as today. 

Ah but I predate you by 20 years so might be

[Mick Dempsey]

True. 
 

[Pete Mctree]

There seems to be plenty of tree workers that can accomplish 80% of the tasks - it's the ones that can do the rest that are scarce.

 

I put a large amount of blame at the doors of those who construct the training and certification. It simply churns out certified and barely competent individuals, who may be able to complete a task, but have little understanding of the process they are undertaking.

eg they can fell a tree, but have no idea why the back-cut should be higher than the sink, why the bottom of the sink should be level etc etc etc

 

If we do not give those learning the knowledge to make effective decisions, then this industry is not going to change and progress. Perhaps like many do, it is better to employ cheap semi-skilled labour and simply do not even attempt to undertake the bigger, more difficult tasks - in essence be a glorified gardener and conifer topper.

[Rich Rule]

11 hours ago, Mick Dempsey said:

 

 

Like you, I had to take a very low wage while I was learning the work, £50 a day on a self employed basis, but you have to look down the line and play the long game.

 

ATB.

Without sounding like the four Yorkshiremen sketch.

 

I started on 37 quid a day and was told I had a 5 pound PPE allowance.  I thought great, 42 quid a day.  
 

Nope, I had some form of tax relief on the 37 quid to the value of a fiver.

 

That was in 2002.  I wonder what that would be equivalent today?  I was employed.

 

I learnt loads there, so did the bits I was asked of and everything else in between.  Lasted a year and a half then left.

[Mick Dempsey]

2 minutes ago, Rich Rule said:

Without sounding like the four Yorkshiremen sketch.

 

I started on 37 quid a day and was told I had a 5 pound PPE allowance.  I thought great, 42 quid a day.  
 

Nope, I had some form of tax relief on the 37 quid to the value of a fiver.

 

That was in 2002.  I wonder what that would be equivalent today?  I was employed.

 

I learnt loads there, so did the bits I was asked of and everything else in between.  Lasted a year and a half then left.

You lucky bastard!

 

You do have to play the long game as a climber though. 
 

We’ve had this chat before about freelance climber/small business owner and we haven’t agreed.

 

I have always thought that freelance climbing serves two purposes.

1: More money than employed climbers, allowing you to get machinery bought.

 

2: Prepares you, both from a skillset POV (you get the tough stuff regularly)

and a business POV to start getting your own work. 

 

 

[Steve Bullman]

15 minutes ago, Mick Dempsey said:

You lucky bastard!

 

You do have to play the long game as a climber though. 
 

We’ve had this chat before about freelance climber/small business owner and we haven’t agreed.

 

I have always thought that freelance climbing serves two purposes.

1: More money than employed climbers, allowing you to get machinery bought.

 

2: Prepares you, both from a skillset POV (you get the tough stuff regularly)

and a business POV to start getting your own work. 

 

 

 

Agreed to a point. Some freelancers aren't cut out for running a tree business though and are happy just freelancing. I know I fell into that category.

[5thelement]

57 minutes ago, Pete Mctree said:

I put a large amount of blame at the doors of those who construct the training and certification. It simply churns out certified and barely competent individuals, who may be able to complete a task, but have little understanding of the process they are undertaking.

eg they can fell a tree, but have no idea why the back-cut should be higher than the sink, why the bottom of the sin

The most recent version of the NPTC Small Tree Felling certification requires the candidate to explain/describe a whole series of felling cuts including step cut, spear cut , 80-20 front cut, V-cut, split level, standard fell, Danish cut, Dogs Tooth and when each cut is to be used, they also have to describe the cuts and their uses when doing their Ariel cutting certificate.

As an instructor I spend a lot of time explaining the physics of the cuts. Dimensions, hinge length/thickness, sink depth etc on the whiteboard before demonstrating all these cuts and their application.

The candidates will be expected to carry out these cuts using the correct methods, for the given tree bias, and will need to show this when being independently assessed.

 

Maybe it has been a long time since you did any training?

 

And the back cut doesn’t need to be higher than the sink.

[Rich Rule]

1 hour ago, Mick Dempsey said:

You lucky bastard!

 

You do have to play the long game as a climber though. 
 

We’ve had this chat before about freelance climber/small business owner and we haven’t agreed.

 

I have always thought that freelance climbing serves two purposes.

1: More money than employed climbers, allowing you to get machinery bought.

 

2: Prepares you, both from a skillset POV (you get the tough stuff regularly)

and a business POV to start getting your own work. 

 

 

I do run my own business.

 

I still do contract climbing.  I find it fun and keeps me on my toes.  Fills the gaps between my own jobs.

 

When I was living in London I had no interest other than freelance climbing.  I didn’t see the point as I knew I wouldn’t be there forever.

 

Plus there was the risk of getting cleaned out every week.

[Will C]

I started as a “self employed” groundy, work dryed up so I picked up a job and brought in a subbie climber to cut while I cleared, this worked for a few jobs then I did my climbing tickets and brought in a cheaper self employed groundy. Within 18months I had my own chipper and it grew from there until for personal reasons we pulled the plug on the tree game and went back employed on a farm 12 years later. At which point we had a wide range of kit and could tackle 99% of the work that came out way.

 

I think the biggest problem in the industry is the fact a saw can be brought with no proof of training. If you stop homeowners having a go with there BnQ chainsaw the industry we will be looked at in a higher regard, the same as a sparky or gas plumber is, people except they are not allowed to do it themselves and need to pay for pro help. 
 

Unfortunately we do not have a unified and coherent trade body to fight for us, I think the aa are just getting fat and lazy lining there own and the pockets of a few big contractors. 

[Mick Dempsey]

3 minutes ago, Will C said:

I started as a “self employed” groundy, work dryed up so I picked up a job and brought in a subbie climber to cut while I cleared, this worked for a few jobs then I did my climbing tickets and brought in a cheaper self employed groundy. Within 18months I had my own chipper and it grew from there until for personal reasons we pulled the plug on the tree game and went back employed on a farm 12 years later. At which point we had a wide range of kit and could tackle 99% of the work that came out way.

 

I think the biggest problem in the industry is the fact a saw can be brought with no proof of training. If you stop homeowners having a go with there BnQ chainsaw the industry we will be looked at in a higher regard, the same as a sparky or gas plumber is, people except they are not allowed to do it themselves and need to pay for pro help. 
 

Unfortunately we do not have a unified and coherent trade body to fight for us, I think the aa are just getting fat and lazy lining there own and the pockets of a few big contractors. 

You can buy an angle grinder from B&Q, fix the brakes on your own car, and anyone else’s if you like. 
Sparkys and plumbers will burn your house down and blow your street up if they get it wrong, that’s why they have strict regulatory bodies.

A badly pruned tree is the worst outcome you’ll get from a shit tree surgeon.