Two-rope Working - an update

[Mick Dempsey]

The document is on page three of this thread, but here you are..

[Jamie Jones]

I have been doing some youtube searches for this new double line climbing method to see how people manage it but I am struggling to find anyone climbing on two ropes.

So I would be interested in how people are doing to be approaching this double rope climbing and what set-up they will be using. Especially as I am a new climber.


Hmm... For me this is going to get complicated especially being a newbie...
I use a petzl ZigZag set up (so 1x ZigZag, 2x petzl carabiners and a DMM Swivel) on my bridge. Along with a flipline (wire or rope depending on task).
I have for better work positioning also invested in a Teufelberger 10m CElanyard / hipSTAR Flex (with 2x Pinto Pulleys/Ocean and 4x carabiner set up to create a double flipline for multi point anchoring).

 

So with a 2x line setup and a strop line this is going to get very busy on my harness bridge and surely runs a higher risk or crossroading kit?

I can see how this could work on big trees with large open areas to operate in. But there are many species of trees that don't give you this flexibility for moving around.

So how are other more experienced climbers going to tackle this new working method?
 

Edited December 1, 2019 by Jamie Jones

[RC0]

7 hours ago, patrickgalloway3 said:

As an individual who does a mixture of tree work and IRATA rope access work it is perhaps time for a change. Rope access companies can work to British standards which are generally a lower level of training and competency than IRATA. Tree surgery has managed to stay incredibly unregulated for a long time. I have to renew my level 3 IRATA competency every 3years. I did my nptc38 and 39 in 2000 and as far as I am aware it is still valid. If the industry wants to be taken seriously continued training and assessment should be incouraged. 

Well you're still here Patrick, 19 years after your NPTC thingys. So Im assuming you've managed just fine without being re-trained, refreshed or whatever ?

 

The things that may have changed in that time is the average trees are probably smaller and easier, and the equipment and availability of has improved. Other than that, the principles of general tree work are largely the same. I can see the merit in training where something novel and beneficial is being taught. But often is the case that these training companies and individuals are just moving the furniture around in the living room. Ultimately though, its the same furniture in the same room. Smoke and mirrors comes to mind, at your expense.

 

You mentioned also, and this is something Ive heard several times but dont understand....you said " if the industry wants to be taken seriously". Taken seriously by whom ? Thanks. The customer ? I think most find reassurance in reputation and experience of that individual or company. We are all individuals after all. No amount of practical training courses is the equivalent to experience on site, under pressure. Nor does even an equal amount of training in such a varied and subjective field result in an equal outcome between 2 or more competitors. I doubt that telling potential customers that you have to be retrained or refreshed on a job you've already been doing daily for years is going to impress them or that they will take you more or less seriously. Unless its theoretical plant and tree science education, but thats not what this is about.

 

If a handful of people are too mentally lazy or undisciplined to tie knots properly resulting in falling injuries, its their own fault. Nobody elses. Not the hardware or technique. So should knots be banned and replaced by spliced eyes too or instead ? And the massive majority who tie their knots safely every day, which is a simple enough task, be penalized because of the actions of a few ? Because thats whats happening here with this 2 rope nonsense. Although I suppose the enforcement of 2 ropes by all those who conjured up this scheme holds a lot more profitable potential than just banning knots. Dont get me wrong, 2 ropes can be an invaluable option in the right circumstances that everyone can benefit from at times, its been around forever.....but it should remain just an option. 

 

Amazing how this stuff always goes on behind closed doors and then only gets announced when its already a done deal. And Im not having that this decision was taken independently by the HSE. Its a collective scheme, a betrayal, yet another one to take money off people. 

 

 

 

 

[Gray git]

Well you're still here Patrick, 19 years after your NPTC thingys. So Im assuming you've managed just fine without being re-trained, refreshed or whatever ?
 
The things that may have changed in that time is the average trees are probably smaller and easier, and the equipment and availability of has improved. Other than that, the principles of general tree work are largely the same. I can see the merit in training where something novel and beneficial is being taught. But often is the case that these training companies and individuals are just moving the furniture around in the living room. Ultimately though, its the same furniture in the same room. Smoke and mirrors comes to mind, at your expense.
 
You mentioned also, and this is something Ive heard several times but dont understand....you said " if the industry wants to be taken seriously". Taken seriously by whom ? Thanks. The customer ? I think most find reassurance in reputation and experience of that individual or company. We are all individuals after all. No amount of practical training courses is the equivalent to experience on site, under pressure. Nor does even an equal amount of training in such a varied and subjective field result in an equal outcome between 2 or more competitors. I doubt that telling potential customers that you have to be retrained or refreshed on a job you've already been doing daily for years is going to impress them or that they will take you more or less seriously. Unless its theoretical plant and tree science education, but thats not what this is about.
 
If a handful of people are too mentally lazy or undisciplined to tie knots properly resulting in falling injuries, its their own fault. Nobody elses. Not the hardware or technique. So should knots be banned and replaced by spliced eyes too or instead ? And the massive majority who tie their knots safely every day, which is a simple enough task, be penalized because of the actions of a few ? Because thats whats happening here with this 2 rope nonsense. Although I suppose the enforcement of 2 ropes by all those who conjured up this scheme holds a lot more profitable potential than just banning knots. Dont get me wrong, 2 ropes can be an invaluable option in the right circumstances that everyone can benefit from at times, its been around forever.....but it should remain just an option. 
 
Amazing how this stuff always goes on behind closed doors and then only gets announced when its already a done deal. And Im not having that this decision was taken independently by the HSE. Its a collective scheme, a betrayal, yet another one to take money off people. 
 
 
 
 

What I'm finding more and more is after 21 years of actually doing this job, actually resurching new technical stuff through online resources and trade shows and putting these into practice I go on a refreshee/update course and end up teaching the trainer stuff as sadly a fews experience ends not much after where the level of passing a assessment ends.
I was talking rigging with one not long ago and he's never used a winch bollard, aerial friction device like a safeblock or rigging rings as redirects and he's offering a cs40 update course. Off topic I know but shows how the upper levels arnt always connected with ways going on on the ground.

[Gray git]

As an individual who does a mixture of tree work and IRATA rope access work it is perhaps time for a change. Rope access companies can work to British standards which are generally a lower level of training and competency than IRATA. Tree surgery has managed to stay incredibly unregulated for a long time. I have to renew my level 3 IRATA competency every 3years. I did my nptc38 and 39 in 2000 and as far as I am aware it is still valid. If the industry wants to be taken seriously continued training and assessment should be incouraged. 

I also have a mate who has a foot in both industries as from what I understand the rates within the IRATA industry reflects the cost of retraining quite considerably as its far better represented and by nature of the client far better respected, your not lumped in with window cleaners up ladders with clients expecting to pay window cleaning rates like tree work is often lumped in with grass cutters and hedge trimmings gardeners with clients falling over when you say it costs more to do what we do.

My opinion is this industry is badly represented at both ends of the scale, unprofessional and crooked companies ripping people off like we all have seen on the TV progress or even in our own area and by the big organisations supposedly representing and promoting us.
Again everyone has heard of corgi for gass fitters but how many public know the AA isn't for alcoholics or road rescue, fisa?? No idea NPT.. who

[warren]

Well I bit the bullet and tried it today on a small beech.

 

I used a zz on ddrt and a hitch climber/wrench on srt and a strop.

 

The setup was as faff as I haven't done srt for a long time (I normally go straight for the zz).

 

Accessed the tree via a ladder, ropes dangling every which way. 

 

I had the srt set up with a cambium saver/carabiner so I could advance it and it was right at the top of the rope so I use it as a strop climbing up. (I could have just put a crab thou the spliced eye and used it that way).

 

Advance each system to the top. Rope guide for the ddrt and top tie the srt on separate limbs.

 

I had to climb above the anchor point to reduce the top which was a pain with slackening off the 2 systems and used the strop for work positioning.

 

Once back under the anchor points it was just like doing a limb walk with 2 ropes. Trouble is I felt so safe I didn't feel the need for the strop (which I think defeats the object of the exercise).

Rope management-wise it was a small tree so minimal friction on the ddrt setup but I think I may go for 2*srt systems.

 

negatives .... My tree overhung the direct path to the chipper so the groundy had a fine time dodging ropes. And dragging them with the brush but that's just the position the tree was in. 

 

Once down i had 2ropes to pull down and put away .. so it did slow the job down with the setup and take down but early days I guess..

 

Sorry if that was boring but I had to start somewhere.

[patrickgalloway3]

Well I bit the bullet and tried it today on a small beech.
 
I used a zz on ddrt and a hitch climber/wrench on srt and a strop.
 
The setup was as faff as I haven't done srt for a long time (I normally go straight for the zz).
 
Accessed the tree via a ladder, ropes dangling every which way. 
 
I had the srt set up with a cambium saver/carabiner so I could advance it and it was right at the top of the rope so I use it as a strop climbing up. (I could have just put a crab thou the spliced eye and used it that way).
 
Advance each system to the top. Rope guide for the ddrt and top tie the srt on separate limbs.
 
I had to climb above the anchor point to reduce the top which was a pain with slackening off the 2 systems and used the strop for work positioning.
 
Once back under the anchor points it was just like doing a limb walk with 2 ropes. Trouble is I felt so safe I didn't feel the need for the strop (which I think defeats the object of the exercise).
Rope management-wise it was a small tree so minimal friction on the ddrt setup but I think I may go for 2*srt systems.
 
negatives .... My tree overhung the direct path to the chipper so the groundy had a fine time dodging ropes. And dragging them with the brush but that's just the position the tree was in. 
 
Once down i had 2ropes to pull down and put away .. so it did slow the job down with the setup and take down but early days I guess..
 
Sorry if that was boring but I had to start somewhere.

Would a rope access back up device be suitable for the second rope? Petzls asap is flawed but does self tender on the way up and down. Only comes into play in the event of a fall, bit like a cars seatbelt

[Gerbutt]

51 minutes ago, warren said:

Well I bit the bullet and tried it today on a small beech.

 

I used a zz on ddrt and a hitch climber/wrench on srt and a strop.

 

The setup was as faff as I haven't done srt for a long time (I normally go straight for the zz).

 

Accessed the tree via a ladder, ropes dangling every which way. 

 

I had the srt set up with a cambium saver/carabiner so I could advance it and it was right at the top of the rope so I use it as a strop climbing up. (I could have just put a crab thou the spliced eye and used it that way).

 

Advance each system to the top. Rope guide for the ddrt and top tie the srt on separate limbs.

 

I had to climb above the anchor point to reduce the top which was a pain with slackening off the 2 systems and used the strop for work positioning.

 

Once back under the anchor points it was just like doing a limb walk with 2 ropes. Trouble is I felt so safe I didn't feel the need for the strop (which I think defeats the object of the exercise).

Rope management-wise it was a small tree so minimal friction on the ddrt setup but I think I may go for 2*srt systems.

 

negatives .... My tree overhung the direct path to the chipper so the groundy had a fine time dodging ropes. And dragging them with the brush but that's just the position the tree was in. 

 

Once down i had 2ropes to pull down and put away .. so it did slow the job down with the setup and take down but early days I guess..

 

Sorry if that was boring but I had to start somewhere.

Not boring at all bud ? A friend tried it today on a fairly large maple dismantle. It looked a bit of a faff to set up, and at times it looked to get in the way, but it also looked really handy now and then and the more he used it the smoother things looked. I suppose as a dismantle the longer he was up there the less branches there were to get in the way, may have been a different story on a reduction!

[warren]

What setup did he use ddrt or set or a mix? 

[MattyF]

5 minutes ago, Gerbutt said:

Not boring at all bud ? A friend tried it today on a fairly large maple dismantle. It looked a bit of a faff to set up, and at times it looked to get in the way, but it also looked really handy now and then and the more he used it the smoother things looked. I suppose as a dismantle the longer he was up there the less branches there were to get in the way, may have been a different story on a reduction!

or a rigging dismantle