Two Rope Working Consultation

[The avantgardener]

20 minutes ago, Svts said:

I won't  name names but I've been on a few very poorly delivered courses.  One particular refresher delivered by a pretty prominent member of the training establishment comes to mind. 

Everybody came out wondering why they'd bothered. 

Chap deliveried it parrot fashion all while being massively distracted by a new facet of his business he was setting up. 

To the extent that the one new lad on the course was tutored by a couple of the old hands in a few things he couldn't grasp. 

I had had previous training from this guy years before. He was very good then. 

But that was while he was employed by a college, before he set up his own outfit, and the training didn't come second to the £sss. Not total crap, volume of bums on seats pays the bills. 

There are some cracking trainers out there for sure. But there are a few shockers too. 

 

So you had a bad experience with a trainer, it happens, is he involved along with all the other training providers with writing best practice/icop for the industry as you stated earlier? 

[Svts]

1 hour ago, Mick Dempsey said:

It’s not fair to knock the trainers, they’re trying to find a solution and following what they are supposed to do.

 

Low blow imo.

In a way your right. But the bigger picture is that the training industry isn't serving actual tree work industry very well. 

The number of trained lads I've given a go in the last 10 years that didn't last a year before jacking it in stands testimont to it. 

Pretty much all of them had spent many thousands of pounds with various trainers but still struggled with very basic things and struggled to cope with the physical demands. One or two still had a fear of heights ffs. 

The two rope thing is a silly distraction imo. 

[The avantgardener]

2 minutes ago, Svts said:

In a way your right. But the bigger picture is that the training industry isn't serving actual tree work industry very well. 

The number of trained lads I've given a go in the last 10 years that didn't last a year before jacking it in stands testimont to it. 

Pretty much all of them had spent many thousands of pounds with various trainers but still struggled with very basic things and struggled to cope with the physical demands. One or two still had a fear of heights ffs. 

The two rope thing is a silly distraction imo. 

This has nothing to do with training and says everything about the individuals, no training can completely remove someone’s fear of heights or prepare them for hard graft, they can do it or they can’t.

[Svts]

Just now, The avantgardener said:

This has nothing to do with training and says everything about the individuals, no training can completely remove someone’s fear of heights or prepare them for hard graft, they can do it or they can’t.

Someone qualifies in arial rescue but doesn't like working at height flags up a big problem in my book. 

Yes from conversation with said trainer he has been involved with the writing of best practice etc. 

I'll dip out this now as you don't seem to  like any honest opinions formed over the last 30 plus years that differ from your own. Cheers

[Mr. Squirrel]

1 hour ago, The avantgardener said:

But the training providers haven’t brought this in, HSE have, there isn’t a training provider in the country who would have welcomed the change to a two rope system, they have just had to respond to it and with minimal time.

I was agreeing with you man...

32 minutes ago, Svts said:

Someone qualifies in arial rescue but doesn't like working at height flags up a big problem in my book. 

 

Agreed. You can't expect someone who's only had a weeks training to actually be a competent climber yet. But passing those who are clearly deeply uncomfortable, and I've seen many, puts others in a dangerous position. 

[Pete Mctree]

How do people really expect someone to become competent or even proficient in 5 days work at height training? 

As an industry we are not happy to spend money on training- it needs to happen either on site during work time & costing loss of production or through extra training at a direct hit to the wallet. We need to adjust and reassess our expectations as we all had to start somewhere and learn at someone's expense 

[jfc]

Hi Folks,

 

I was trying to look up two rope systems and came accross this stuff from HSE. It was all new to me but others a probably familiar with it.

 

In my opinion this contains some dynamite critisism of 2 rope working and it is produced by HSE. It is still live on their website (there's not caveat that this is now out of date or superseded by the new guidance).

 

www.hse.gov.uk/agriculture/pdf/wahreport.pdf

 

Section 7.6.2 Sectional dismantling using ropes.

'If a second high anchor point was used a number of strengths and weaknesses have been identified (see Evaluation1 Appendix 2). In addition the following  were highlighted:

Increased risk of accidental removal of second high anchor with catastrophic consequences for climber.

Reducing the availabilty of rigging points separate to the climber high anchor.

Greater confusion of ropes within the crown.

Much greater chance of lowering ropes running across climbing lines'

 

Section 8.

...where two rope working is not currently supported by best practice, evaluation has shown,that any improvements are small and and outweighed in practical terms by increased effort, time and cost or combinations thereof.

 

further on 

 

...'a dogmatic approach to work techniques without the opportunity for individual asessment and modification of technique would make arboricultural work in trees more difficult and in some cases increase risk.'

 

Look at Appendix 2

This section basically risk assesses rope techniques in different situations, and the conclusion for many of these is that 2 ropes are not recommended.

Evaluation 2 medium trees with congested crowns.

Evaluation 4

Evaluation 5 (maybe)

Evaluation 6.

 

I think this report contains loads of evidence against 2 rope working, hse certainly haven't produced anything more up to date that contadicts this. If you can manage to read more of this stuff please read this and pick out important pieces and use it to critique the ICoP.

 

Happy reading.

 

jan.

Edited January 5, 2020 by jfc
typo

[Will C]

 

9 minutes ago, jfc said:

Hi Folks,

 

I was trying to look up two rope systems and came accross this stuff from HSE. It was all new to me but others a probably familiar with it.

 

In my opinion this contains some dynamite critisism of 2 rope working and it is produced by HSE. It is still live on their website (there's not caveat that this is now out of date or superseded by the new guidance).

 

www.hse.gov.uk/agriculture/pdf/wahreport.pdf

 

Section 7.6.2 Sectional dismantling using ropes.

'If a second high anchor point was used a number of strengths and weaknesses have been identified (see Evaluation1 Appendix 2). In addition the following  were highlighted:

Increased risk of accidental removal of second high anchor with catastrophic consequences for climber.

Reducing the availabilty of rigging points separate to the climber high anchor.

Greater confusion of ropes within the crown.

Much greater chance of lowering ropes running across climbing lines'

 

Section 8.

...where two rope working is not currently supported by best practice, evaluation has shown,that any improvements are small and and outweighed in practical terms by increased effort, time and cost or combinations thereof.

 

further on 

 

...'a dogmatic approach to work techniques without the opportunity for individual asessment and modification of technique would make arboricultural work in trees more difficult and in some cases increase risk.'

 

Look at Appendix 2

This section basically risk assesses rope techniques in different situations, and the conclusion for many of these is that 2 ropes are not recommended.

Evaluation 2 medium trees with congested crowns.

Evaluation 4

Evaluation 5 (maybe)

Evaluation 6.

 

I think this report contains loads of evidence against 2 rope working, hse certainly haven't produced anything more up to date that contadicts this. If you can manage to read more of this stuff please read this and pick out important pieces and use it to critique the ICoP.

 

Happy reading.

 

jan.

Good find. Can we have a link please? 

[jfc]

2 minutes ago, Will C said:

 

Good find. Can we have a link please? 

it's there isn't it?

 

https://www.hse.gov.uk/agriculture/pdf/wahreport.pdf

 

 

[Marc]

On 31/12/2019 at 19:43, Jamie said:

Hi y'all,

 

I've not been on here for quite a while, but loitered in the shadows from time to time.

 

My background:

2003 I got my tree climbing and chainsaw tickets,

2010 got my IRATA level1, I'm now a level 3 and via a convoluted route working on shore, offshore, commercial, domestic, petrochemical and railways, I'm now railway structures examiner.

 

Having read through a fair chunk of this thread, I see a lot I want to correct.

 

To my best knowledge work at height (WAH) falls into 3 catagories,

1. Work restraint, you can't get to the edge to

2. Fall arrest, you climb with your kit being there as a back up (energy absorbers with scaffolders hooks or a Petzl  ASAP)

3. Work positioning, where you are in suspension (rope access and tree work)

 

The IRATA rope access system relies on two independent systems. A working line and a redundant back up line.

These can be anchored at the same unquestionably sound anchor but each on two systems. E.g. 2x wire sling, 2x carabiner 2x rope.

Every rope job I've been on has had a ropes long enough to reach a safe place / ground either as part of the kit or as part of a rescue bag. I would say that in the tree game both ropes should reach the ground.

 

Back ups.

A few years back Petzl withdrew the waiver they had for rope techs to use the Shunt as a back up as it is designed as an ascender. They then released the ASAP to replace it. The ASAP is a back up device on an energy absorber designed to be used on the sternal or dorsal attachment point to keep a casualty in a vertical position. It is not a work positioning tool. Depending on the activity the back up can be anchored a short distance away to keep the back up safe (welding, birning, grinding).

 

Rope systems

I'm happy working on both tree and IRATA systems and having both tool sets has allowed me to probl

 

Using 2 ropes.

I've had to use two ropes while tree climbing as part of IRATA jobs using a Shunt as a backup and an ASAP.

 

Is a redundant back up suitable for tree work? I feel a bit of a hypocrite for having a view despite not tree climbing anymore, but...

 

Will it slow down tree work? yes. In the rope game 2 points of contact means a minimum of 2 points, no changing over to one point etc.

 

Do you have to comply? Not all rope firms are IRATA members so don't fully comply with the IRATA ICOP, I imagine the same will apply to the tree world. If you can write a RAMS and risk assess it out, be my guest, but I wouldn't like to try and persuade an insurer orca court room if the worst happened.

 

Will it make people safer? That's down to the individual. I've worked with many who are worse than a man down. 2 lines, 1 which is a redundant backup makes climbing to a casualty easier.

 

Will it cost more and drive people to use non compliant companies? Who knows but maybe. The main clients who would ask for certs and compliance docs will be the commercial side, not the domestic market.

 

Anyway, those are my ramblings, feel free to ask about the IRATA side of things as that's my bag these days.

 

Oh and happy new year.

 

Jamie

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hi Jamie hows you?

 

im interested in how you went about incorporating the ASAP into your canopy work positioning system? Particularly how it was anchored, rope type, and your thoughts on the user instructions with rope deflection and no debris or detritus particularly leaves to enter the ASAP? I would of thought this alone would prohibit its use in the crown. Also it is a fall arrest device typically in Arb we work position with fall protection systems.

 

Just curious how you come about your standard operating procedures for tree work from an irata approach?

Edited January 6, 2020 by Marc