Background to the HSE decision on two rope working

[carlos]

37 minutes ago, TIMON said:

 

Evening Paul.

Can’t help wondering how ‘pragmatic’ the insurance companies will be in the event of a claim?..

Funny you should mention utility companies. (I wonder if this is where it’s come from?)
I recently heard about a utility company insisting on their climbers using two points of connection at all times (3 when cutting).
Apparently it was because they’d had quite a few climbers falling out of trees. (?!)

The worrying thing about this (IMO) is that some guy in an office, responsible for safety issues a knee jerk reaction (3 tie in points) rather than a systematic investigation tackling the real causes of why their climbers were repeatedly falling . Surely there must have been something fundamentally wrong in their basic climbing/working practices? By introducing the new policy they have merely ‘covered over’ why it was happening in the first place and not addressed the real issues.

Surely the HSE would be serving the industry far better if they could establish the specific causes behind these accidents and address the issues through training and implementing better work practices, rather than just saying
“We don’t know why people fall out of trees so you’ll just have to use another rope”

Sorry for the rant,



 

 

some good points,

is it even really possible to climb properly with two ropes!!!!

im all for making things safer but when its not practicle or its over the top then people switch off and turn  their back on it all and thats not great either.

[Rough Hewn]

From a groundies perspective, sounds like a nightmare if a rigging job goes wrong.
How many ropes to get caught up?

[drinksloe]

So glad I rarely climb these days, sort of lost for words.

 

I'd imagine most of the reasons climbers fall out of trees is free climbing so not tied in at all. 

I know 1 company that used to give the climbers extra if they free spiked to the top.

 

Not going to say wot I really think about the HSE Nazis, but as usual do more harm than good

When I 1st started climbing was just after they outlawed screwgate carbs, I mind the instructors at time saying it was a backwards step as a screw gate won't open by itself

I've twice had a modern carb open on me by itself, both times when tied in with a few ropes and the other rope has opened it

 

[Khriss]

Yes. Some plank fell out of tree on our job. So quickly did aerial refresher day- including second rope in tree fr pole rescue purposes. Don't think it's a major issue, running second rope up, but operationally in bushy trees it could be fraught. K

[Si Jo Tee]

9 hours ago, The avantgardener said:

LANTRA have just published a HSE sanctioned workbook which covers the use of two ropes as well as when one rope can be used after extensive risk assessment has been carried out. Rather than SRT they are calling it (SRWP) Stationary Rope Work Positioning and Rescue. 

Any chance you can post a link to this workbook please?

[AA Teccie (Paul)]

8 hours ago, carlos said:

climbing around a tree with two 45m ropes anchored in!!! thats going to be hard, frustrating , confusing and probably more dangerous.

if its anchor point failure thats the problem?, then switch to srwp and insist on at least 2 top tie points, that way a bomb proof anchor is achived and the climber can still work the tree easly and use the lanyard whilst cutting.

carl

The expectation / 'default position' from HSE is that 2 independent ropes and anchors will be used as the norm.

 

However, the process, as previously, will allow for a risk based / assessed approach and were it can be clearly demonstrated that a 2nd line will create a higher level of risk, perhaps because of entanglement in a narrow crowned / fastigiate type tree (???), then the 'reasonably practicable' argument can be presented (they will expect this to be documented on a site-by-site / tree-by-tree basis I expect and, unlike currently, will not accept climbing on a single line as the norm.)

 

Thanks for your post,

Paul

[aspenarb]

I suppose I had better get our climbers to sign a disclaimer Re the use of SRT.

 

Bob

[Mike Hill]

How does one use two independent anchors on a single stemmed tree?

 

As two independent anchorpoints are reliant on a single point,in this case the single stem the failure of which would result in both anchors failing as well?

 

No advantage over a single rope.

 

 

[AA Teccie (Paul)]

2 minutes ago, Mike Hill said:

No advantage over a single rope.

 

 

Perhaps not in relation to the potential for anchor point failure but accidental detachment from one system, or cutting through of one system etc. 

[AA Teccie (Paul)]

23 minutes ago, aspenarb said:

I suppose I had better get our climbers to sign a disclaimer Re the use of SRT.

 

Bob

Hmmm, not sure legally where that really leaves you.

 

be mindful of the issue but await publication  of TG1(hopefully very soon)  and use that to inform decision making and practices