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Background to the HSE decision on two rope working

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Is this for when you have your anchor point/points in? How do you get to your anchor point? Do need to have two ropes attached then lanyard in the third to ascend? 

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20 minutes ago, AA Teccie (Paul) said:

Perhaps not in relation to the potential for anchor point failure but accidental detachment from one system, or cutting through of one system etc. 

Don't you already have that through the use of a side strop?

 

I would enjoy seeing the architects of the New rule,productively reduce a large Beech Tree using two climbing ropes and a side strop.

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5 minutes ago, Mike Hill said:

Don't you already have that through the use of a side strop?

 

I would enjoy seeing the architects of the New rule,productively reduce a large Beech Tree using two climbing ropes and a side strop.

Maybe...'IF' the side strop is used.

 

Their intention is to introduce a failsafe into the system by default and still use the secondary anchor when working / cutting.

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12 minutes ago, andyandy said:

Is this for when you have your anchor point/points in? How do you get to your anchor point? Do need to have two ropes attached then lanyard in the third to ascend? 

Hi Andy, 2 anchors / ropes from start to finish...the lanyard only when working.

 

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I have heard that this two rope system has already been introduced within utility work. I see this as the real driving force behind the HSE's push to roll it out. 

As some overzelous health and safety officials have already deemed it necessary and have introduced the standard and relevant training as an example, why would the HSE believe that it is not viable in any other part of the industry? Whoever rolled it out within utility Arb is the real source of this problem - it was probably introduced to counter a poor skill base and lack of experience within the workforce.

 

On a secondary point, I looked at the climbers the demonstrated the systems to the HSE and they were from the top 1% of the industry and could make moving around a tree with any system effortless- the HSE needs to watch a climber of a couple of years, in basic kit stumbling his way around a street tree with two ropes. He would be sweating, swearing and constantly nervous that one of his crew is going to put the tail end of either of his climbing lines through the chipper.  Reality is often very different to what people expect.

 

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20 minutes ago, Pete Mctree said:

He would be sweating, swearing and constantly nervous that one of his crew is going to put the tail end of either of his climbing lines through the chipper.  Reality is often very different to what people expect.

 

Hi Pete,

If any climbing line came close to the chipper I'd be questioning the ground crew very robustly.

"Reality" will change...in time, as will expectations.

Sorry sounds very philosophical but things do change over time...I remember being trained to free-climb up the tree and then to tie in :/ 

 

 

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There is always change, but it is often not for the best & can create a real rift. I climb with two lines if required to acces the whole canopy, so I am not against it in any way where needed, but to introduce it as climbing dogma would be a mistake in my opinion.

 

What I tried to say (my written words often fail me), was that at a certain point there is so much going in the tree for the climber (especially the less experienced)that it becomes a massive negative. This overload leads to increased stress levels, fatigue and ultimately poor decision making, which is when things start to go wrong.

so, If there is a problem with peoples climbing then we need to look at initial and subsequent training and development throughout there early career - not throw another £300 worth of kit at them. There are so many instances I can personally recall where a climber makes a bad decision- even unclipping there main line due to pressure that they could not deal with leading to them making these poor decisions- I strongly believe that training & development is our route to increasing safety not this encumbering bandaid of another rope system.

 

Hope that make better sense Paul & sorry for the rant, but I have been working with poorly trained climbers making treework look dangerous.

 

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if anchor point failure is the problem throwing another rope at it wont help. most trees only have(when removing) one TIP and the second one, below your feet?,miles over the other side? and when your blocking down a stem?

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Im with Pete on this one, rather than simply throw more kit at the job and have ropes all over the place making the job even harder better training and education is whats needed. what if 2 points fail do we add 3 and so on? utter crap, its more like another knee jerk reaction from people who make more money doing SFA sat in ivory towers because they know best. Whats the AA doing about it Paul? I know you have demonstrated what we do but are you actively telling them this is crap or just accepting it because it the HSE?

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31 minutes ago, Pete Mctree said:

There is always change, but it is often not for the best & can create a real rift. I climb with two lines if required to acces the whole canopy, so I am not against it in any way where needed, but to introduce it as climbing dogma would be a mistake in my opinion.

 

What I tried to say (my written words often fail me), was that at a certain point there is so much going in the tree for the climber (especially the less experienced)that it becomes a massive negative. This overload leads to increased stress levels, fatigue and ultimately poor decision making, which is when things start to go wrong.

so, If there is a problem with peoples climbing then we need to look at initial and subsequent training and development throughout there early career - not throw another £300 worth of kit at them. There are so many instances I can personally recall where a climber makes a bad decision- even unclipping there main line due to pressure that they could not deal with leading to them making these poor decisions- I strongly believe that training & development is our route to increasing safety not this encumbering bandaid of another rope system.

 

Hope that make better sense Paul & sorry for the rant, but I have been working with poorly trained climbers making treework look dangerous.

 

Hi Pete, no need to apologise I quite, quite understand and I too initially ranted...but.

 

Training and development is/are key and this is where all this will begin...with 'new' T&D, involving 2 ropes systems, and hence will take considerable time to implement. The other key aspect to training is mentoring 'on the job' and this too will be required.

 

PS your written words are fine, no problem.

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