Electric Vehicles or EVs

[Baldbloke]

Always fancied one but the cost is fairly prohibitive. Along with that manufacturers (with the exception of Tesla) apparent aim of making them look as awful as possible, the financial sums don't really add up. You could buy a hell of a lot of carbon sourced fuels for the price of even a second hand EV. Having tried out a 2015 Nissan Leaf and been totally underwhelmed by its performance and appalled by it's limited winter range, I was surprised by a 2017 BMW i3 performance but appalled by the looks. 40K for a model 3 Tesla along with that disincentive of a hefty 5 year luxury road tax to disincentivize you would also be hard to justify unless being Green was more important to you than the financial argument.

An interesting article below (AutoExpress online) that I've pinched off another forum is also worth knowing about. You just begin to wonder how easy Government promises for going Green is going to be. 

 Scientists warn of “huge implications for our natural resources” as government pushes for rapid adoption of electric cars
A team of scientists has written to the Committee of Climate Change warning that if the UK’s 31.5 million cars are replaced by electric vehicles by 2050, as is currently planned by the Government, this will require almost twice the current annual global supply of cobalt.

The researchers have also calculated that based on the latest ‘811’ battery technology (80 per cent nickel, 10 per cent cobalt, 10 per cent manganese), UK demand for EV batteries will require almost the total amount of neodymium produced globally each year, three quarter’s of the world’s lithium, and “at least half” of the world’s copper.

The letter, authored by a team of eight scientists headed by the Natural History Museum’s head of earth sciences, professor Richard Herrington, explains that to replace the UK’s cars with EVs will require 207,900 tonnes of cobalt, 264,600 tonnes of lithium carbonate and “at least” 7,200 tonnes of neodymium and dysprosium, as well as 2,362,500 tonnes of copper.

Furthermore, the Committee on Climate Change, an independent statutory body established under the Climate Change Act 2008, has previously called for all new cars and vans to be zero-emission by 2035. Professor Herrington and his colleagues estimate that to make the (roughly) 2.5 million new cars sold each year in the UK electric “will require the UK to annually import the equivalent of the entire annual cobalt needs of European industry.”

While the UK’s 2050 target for all cars and vans to be EVs gives us around three decades to procure those materials, the push towards electric vehicles is a global one and other countries, particularly China, are competing in the global mineral marketplace. The letter deepens concerns into cobalt resourcing uncovered by Auto Express at the end of last year.

The scientists also estimate that the energy required to mine materials for EV batteries will take 22.5 TWh (TeraWatt-hours) of energy, equivalent to six per cent of the UK’s current annual electrical usage. Just mining the battery materials necessary to replace the two billion cars in the world would require four times the UK’s total annual electrical output.

Once all those EVs have been built, the letter highlights further concerns. Current estimates put the extra power required for all UK cars to be electric at 63 TWh a year, a 20 per cent increase over current generation levels. To produce this extra electricity with environmentally friendly wind farms would require and extra 6,000 turbines, the production of which would require a “years’ worth of total global copper supply and 10 years’ worth of global neodymium”.

While the letter highlights making all cars electric and environmentally friendly is a “laudable” aim, it warns that the “global supply of raw materials must drastically change to accommodate not just the UK’s transformation to a low carbon economy, but the whole world’s.”

Commenting on the letter, Professor Herrington said: “The urgent need to cut CO2 emissions to secure the future of our planet is clear, but there are huge implications for our natural resources”. Herrington added: “Our role as scientists is to provide the evidence for how best to move towards a zero-carbon economy – society needs to understand that there is a raw material cost of going green”.

[LeeGray]

Bicycle? It could be the future..

Edited June 12, 2019 by LeeGray

[Vespasian]

2 hours ago, Baldbloke said:

Always fancied one but the cost is fairly prohibitive. Along with that manufacturers (with the exception of Tesla) apparent aim of making them look as awful as possible, the financial sums don't really add up. You could buy a hell of a lot of carbon sourced fuels for the price of even a second hand EV. Having tried out a 2015 Nissan Leaf and been totally underwhelmed by its performance and appalled by it's limited winter range, I was surprised by a 2017 BMW i3 performance but appalled by the looks. 40K for a model 3 Tesla along with that disincentive of a hefty 5 year luxury road tax to disincentivize you would also be hard to justify unless being Green was more important to you than the financial argument.

An interesting article below (AutoExpress online) that I've pinched off another forum is also worth knowing about. You just begin to wonder how easy Government promises for going Green is going to be. 

 Scientists warn of “huge implications for our natural resources” as government pushes for rapid adoption of electric cars
A team of scientists has written to the Committee of Climate Change warning that if the UK’s 31.5 million cars are replaced by electric vehicles by 2050, as is currently planned by the Government, this will require almost twice the current annual global supply of cobalt.

The researchers have also calculated that based on the latest ‘811’ battery technology (80 per cent nickel, 10 per cent cobalt, 10 per cent manganese), UK demand for EV batteries will require almost the total amount of neodymium produced globally each year, three quarter’s of the world’s lithium, and “at least half” of the world’s copper.

The letter, authored by a team of eight scientists headed by the Natural History Museum’s head of earth sciences, professor Richard Herrington, explains that to replace the UK’s cars with EVs will require 207,900 tonnes of cobalt, 264,600 tonnes of lithium carbonate and “at least” 7,200 tonnes of neodymium and dysprosium, as well as 2,362,500 tonnes of copper.

Furthermore, the Committee on Climate Change, an independent statutory body established under the Climate Change Act 2008, has previously called for all new cars and vans to be zero-emission by 2035. Professor Herrington and his colleagues estimate that to make the (roughly) 2.5 million new cars sold each year in the UK electric “will require the UK to annually import the equivalent of the entire annual cobalt needs of European industry.”

While the UK’s 2050 target for all cars and vans to be EVs gives us around three decades to procure those materials, the push towards electric vehicles is a global one and other countries, particularly China, are competing in the global mineral marketplace. The letter deepens concerns into cobalt resourcing uncovered by Auto Express at the end of last year.

The scientists also estimate that the energy required to mine materials for EV batteries will take 22.5 TWh (TeraWatt-hours) of energy, equivalent to six per cent of the UK’s current annual electrical usage. Just mining the battery materials necessary to replace the two billion cars in the world would require four times the UK’s total annual electrical output.

Once all those EVs have been built, the letter highlights further concerns. Current estimates put the extra power required for all UK cars to be electric at 63 TWh a year, a 20 per cent increase over current generation levels. To produce this extra electricity with environmentally friendly wind farms would require and extra 6,000 turbines, the production of which would require a “years’ worth of total global copper supply and 10 years’ worth of global neodymium”.

While the letter highlights making all cars electric and environmentally friendly is a “laudable” aim, it warns that the “global supply of raw materials must drastically change to accommodate not just the UK’s transformation to a low carbon economy, but the whole world’s.”

Commenting on the letter, Professor Herrington said: “The urgent need to cut CO2 emissions to secure the future of our planet is clear, but there are huge implications for our natural resources”. Herrington added: “Our role as scientists is to provide the evidence for how best to move towards a zero-carbon economy – society needs to understand that there is a raw material cost of going green”.

For the most part most politicians are clueless about the costs of transitioning from fossil fuel to electric..  

 

I'll say it now, push to hard for a carbon neutral economy and we are heading right down the road to revolution...  

 

look what happened in France with the yellow vests if you want any evidence for that...

[skyhuck]

The idea that we will all have an electric vehicle on the drive is nonsense.

 

A guy on the radio the other day was saying that to replace the UK's stock of internal combustion engined vehicles would require the entire worlds production of battery materials, but what about the rest of the world?

 

Is hydrogen more realistic?

[Dan Maynard]

There is certainly no shortage of raw material for hydrogen, just tricky stuff to keep around once you've separated it. Certainly a few years ago hydrogen was all the rage, fuel cells etc.

[Woodworks]

1 hour ago, skyhuck said:

The idea that we will all have an electric vehicle on the drive is nonsense.

 

A guy on the radio the other day was saying that to replace the UK's stock of internal combustion engined vehicles would require the entire worlds production of battery materials, but what about the rest of the world?

 

Is hydrogen more realistic?

Hydrogen has its problems that's for sure https://interestingengineering.com/hydrogen-fueling-station-explosion-halts-fuel-cell-car-sales-by-toyota-hyundai?utm_source=Facebook&utm_medium=Article&utm_campaign=organic&utm_content=Jun12&fbclid=IwAR0Z5Va9Jjo1W-SlB_4nzzvB9jH-DBoxxL3IcGaoiGf4cVzUhupDgpFZUmk

[Stubby]

3 minutes ago, Woodworks said:

Hydrogen has its problems that's for sure https://interestingengineering.com/hydrogen-fueling-station-explosion-halts-fuel-cell-car-sales-by-toyota-hyundai?utm_source=Facebook&utm_medium=Article&utm_campaign=organic&utm_content=Jun12&fbclid=IwAR0Z5Va9Jjo1W-SlB_4nzzvB9jH-DBoxxL3IcGaoiGf4cVzUhupDgpFZUmk

Didn't do the R 101 much good in 1930

[Woodworks]

We have recently been looking at EVs but Liz is not keen. I like the sound of Renault Zoe https://www.evezy.co.uk/our-vehicles/renault-zoe-r110/but maybe next time we change the car. Yes, they are very expensive but I am sure the prices will drop a bit more. Running cost should be way lower with just electricity for fuel and very simple servicing as so few moving parts.

 

This is an interesting concept that has been talked about for years but looks like it's becoming a reality https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/science-environment-48530488/the-solar-power-charged-electric-cars-making-money

Edited June 12, 2019 by Woodworks

[Stere]

 

 

[Stubby]

1 minute ago, Woodworks said:

We have recently been looking at EVs but Liz is not keen. I like the sound of Renault Zoe but maybe next time we change the car. Yes, they are very expensive but I am sure the prices will drop a bit more. Running cost should be way lower with just electricity for fuel and very simple servicing as so few moving parts.

 

This is an interesting concept that has been talked about for years but looks like it's becoming a reality https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/science-environment-48530488/the-solar-power-charged-electric-cars-making-money

That's a neat trick !?