Climate change anyone?

[AHPP]

1 hour ago, sime42 said:

So I bought some frozen white fish the other day from a supermarket. On reading the description it turns out that it's Alaskan Pollock packed in China. So it's traveled from Alaska to China to the UK. The food miles involved in that make me shudder. Surely that's a massive failure of the market, or the capitalist system. The sooner we stop doing stuff like that the better. It's crazy. That must need some kind of regulation.
If Brexit fixes problems like that then great, there is a silver lining to the cloud. I doubt it though. I heard today that we only produce 50% of our own food, the other 50% is imported. So if we reduce trade with our neighbours in Europe then we'll be forced to import more food from further around the globe. Hence more food miles. Not good.

I don't know anything about the fish trade but you bought it.

 

[AHPP]

54 minutes ago, openspaceman said:

Not really, unfettered capitalism doesn't take the commons into account, it is a means to apply all the resources available to create more wealth,  It has become the most successful system so far, outcompeting feudalism, centralisation etc.. It requires no limits to growth and the devil takes the hindmost. So if the transport cost is competitive then it pays a producer to transport globally. If regulation fails to address the external costs then it's only consumer choice...

Pigou was a commie loser.

[sime42]

Maybe not a massive failure, that was more an echo of your own sentiments. If its not a massive failure on your part then equally its not a massive failure on the Supermarkets either?   
If you're buying 6 fillets for £3.00 you'd have to be fairly naïve to believe its being produced in the UK. Its simply not a sustainable price. Three whole fish filleted and 100% prepped for you to pop on the pan all for around 10% of a Trademans hourly wage? Thats simply not sustainable for the oceans either.  You cant moan and complain if you're apart of the problem. 
 
No fishmonger local, then if you feel as deeply as you indicate then perhaps you need to shop on-line for fish and make it a more of a treat than a staple? 
 
 

Mate, you love it don't you?!

Believe it or not I didn't actually notice the price of the fish. I wasn't buying based on price. I chose it for being frozen. (But I suppose that convenience is almost as bad as low price when it comes to food consumption and production).

I really think that in this country and the rest of the "developed world" food is essentially too cheap..This is behind a whole host of problems;- environmental damage, obesity, poor animal welfare to name but a few obvious ones. I accept that this is in part down to us as consumers, but I think supermarkets and the food industry in general have a bigger responsibility. They are after all profit driven. The cheaper they can sell and produce food the bigger their profits. Here again regulation at a state or government level could be used to help address this issue.

I could swear that last night there was more in one of your posts. Something about buying fresh fish online and driving 30 minutes to your "local" fishmonger. How very odd. Did I imagine that or did you sneakily delete a part of or a post again? [emoji12]

I was going to ask you for the details of the online fishmongers. I was also going to chastise you for driving 30 minutes, (each way?), just to buy some fish. That doesn't seem very responsible at all. Though obviously not as bad getting fish from China!

[trigger_andy]

2 hours ago, sime42 said:

I could swear that last night there was more in one of your posts. Something about buying fresh fish online and driving 30 minutes to your "local" fishmonger. How very odd. Did I imagine that or did you sneakily delete a part of or a post again?

I was going to ask you for the details of the online fishmongers. I was also going to chastise you for driving 30 minutes, (each way?), just to buy some fish. That doesn't seem very responsible at all. Though obviously not as bad getting fish from China!

I removed that last part as I thought it sounded a bit pretentious. 

 

https://www.kingcrab.co.uk/

 

I like these guys. Delivered to your door within 24 hours. I also buy Beef and Hogget on-line through facebook of all places. Scottish Crofters and small scale Farmers.

 

https://www.facebook.com/CreagMhorHebrideans

 

No, 30 minute round trip, but I dont go into town specifically for Fish, I'll buy at the Mongers or Butchers if Im already in town getting a shop or buying other supplies.

 

If I can buy local I do, if I can buy UK sourced I do. Its about practicing what you preach. There is little point in bleating on about it if you're not putting these things into practice yourself. And yes, road miles comes into play, but I feel much better that Im supporting local or UK Fishers and Farmers than importing from around the Globe. 

[sime42]

I removed that last part as I thought it sounded a bit pretentious. 
 
https://www.kingcrab.co.uk/
 
I like these guys. Delivered to your door within 24 hours. I also buy Beef and Hogget on-line through facebook of all places. Scottish Crofters and small scale Farmers.
 
https://www.facebook.com/CreagMhorHebrideans
 
No, 30 minute round trip, but I dont go into town specifically for Fish, I'll buy at the Mongers or Butchers if Im already in town getting a shop or buying other supplies.
 
If I can buy local I do, if I can buy UK sourced I do. Its about practicing what you preach. There is little point in bleating on about it if you're not putting these things into practice yourself. And yes, road miles comes into play, but I feel much better that Im supporting local or UK Fishers and Farmers than importing from around the Globe. 

We need to be careful here; it's looking like we are actually in agreement on this particular subject! How the hell did that happen?

My aspirations are to buy local when I can. Living as I do though in a big landlocked city this is not easy to achieve. I've not properly explored the possibility of online shopping in answer to this, I will endeavour to.

I still think the change required to improve this situation has to be driven by a top down approach, as well as bottom up, consumer lead.

[trigger_andy]

8 minutes ago, sime42 said:

We need to be careful here; it's looking like we are actually in agreement on this particular subject! How the hell did that happen?

My aspirations are to buy local when I can. Living as I do though in a big landlocked city this is not easy to achieve. I've not properly explored the possibility of online shopping in answer to this, I will endeavour to.

I still think the change required to improve this situation has to be driven by a top down approach, as well as bottom up, consumer lead.


 

I guess we do agree on something after all.  

 

I dont think change will ever come from the top on this particular subject. Globalisation is here to stay Im afraid and people will always want something cheaper and cheaper. So its just down to individuals really. Wont make much of an impact in the grand scheme of things but its nice to support local or at least UK businesses and the quality is very good. Take the Hogget for example, not everyones a fan but its delicious, its fairly cheap. Think I paid £6/kg last time?  And you're directly supporting a Small Croftholder. Win/win! He does a run every so often down my way so I buy then, I dont think he delivers UK wide, but there is bound to be Farmers like him the UK over. Definitely worth looking into.

[AHPP]

5 hours ago, sime42 said:

I really think that in this country and the rest of the "developed world" food is essentially too cheap..This is behind a whole host of problems;- environmental damage, obesity, poor animal welfare to name but a few obvious ones. I accept that this is in part down to us as consumers, but I think supermarkets and the food industry in general have a bigger responsibility. They are after all profit driven. The cheaper they can sell and produce food the bigger their profits. Here again regulation at a state or government level could be used to help address this issue.
 

 

State food control. No thanks. 

North Korean famine - Wikipedia

EN.WIKIPEDIA.ORG

 

And since this thread is primarily about the environment: 

Aral Sea - Wikipedia

EN.WIKIPEDIA.ORG

 

 

 

Stop calling for the state to do things. At least on the planet I live on.

 

[trigger_andy]

 
State food control. No thanks. 

North Korean famine - Wikipedia

EN.WIKIPEDIA.ORG  
And since this thread is primarily about the environment: 

Aral Sea - Wikipedia

EN.WIKIPEDIA.ORG  
 
 
Stop calling for the state to do things. At least on the planet I live on.
 

Is the reason foods increasingly cheap not because it’s already state controlled? Take away all the subsidies and you’ll soon see the real cost.

[sime42]

 
State food control. No thanks. 

North Korean famine - Wikipedia

EN.WIKIPEDIA.ORG  
And since this thread is primarily about the environment: 

Aral Sea - Wikipedia

EN.WIKIPEDIA.ORG  
 
 
Stop calling for the state to do things. At least on the planet I live on.
 

Easy tiger! You've jumped forward several steps all by yourself there. I didn't say state food control, or anything like it. I merely suggested some regulation to try to address some of the major problems that we're all facing right now.
As you've probably realised by now I am not at all a fan of our State, and especially not our current government. That said I would not even begin to equate them with Russia or North Korea. What a strange idea.

[AHPP]

5 minutes ago, trigger_andy said:

 

 

Is the reason foods increasingly cheap not because it’s already state controlled? Take away all the subsidies and you’ll soon see the real cost.

 

 

You'd see the real cost at the shop, which is preferable to the current system of seeing artificially low prices but paying the real price plus some. Subsidies make things more expensive. The thing still needs paying for but then so does the administration of collecting tax and paying the subsidies. You pay less at the shop but more overall.

 

Say milk costs 80p. Pay the shop 80p and the milk's yours.

Now say some government cvnt decides to force milk to be 60p at the shop. He gives the farmer 20p so he sells it to the shop for 20p less. You pay 60p at the shop but you've had to pay the 20p the farmer got in tax somewhere else and then more tax to pay said government cvnt to go to work, say 5p. 80p milk now costs 85p.