Climate change anyone?

[trigger_andy]

2 hours ago, AHPP said:

State food control. No thanks. 

 

Just now, AHPP said:

Yeah. I said that.

So your original point is you'd not like the idea of the State controlling our food prices and when I explain my understanding of how the State is actually controlling the food prices your reply is 'yeh, I said that'? 

 

What? 

[AHPP]

21 minutes ago, trigger_andy said:

 

So your original point is you'd not like the idea of the State controlling our food prices and when I explain my understanding of how the State is actually controlling the food prices your reply is 'yeh, I said that'? 

 

What? 

Suffice to say we both understand the situation.

Edited December 16, 2020 by AHPP

[openspaceman]

1 hour ago, trigger_andy said:

Remove all subsidies, level the playing field and have the end user pay the actual cost of food and a lot of people would be in for a very nasty shock, and most likely starve to death. People really do not know how good they have it, all thanks to state controlled prices.

Farming is a volatile thing, some years there is glut and some scarcity. Farmers do well in scarcity because of the price elasticity of food, when you have insufficient you will pay a lot but as soon as you are satisfied you will buy no more at any price. The government intervenes  to stabilise prices and when we originally joined the common market this europe wide intervention caused  various food mountains and attracted a lot of fraud, not to mention the cost of administering the scheme  in wages for two levels of civil servants.. While the CAP seemed to favour poor farmers in France its effect here was the opposite with big landowners gaining immensely while small marginal farmers struggled.

 

My first job was on a dairy farm and a herd of 35 cows paid one man;s wages, now because of price pressure on milk (supermarkets pay less than cost of production) only big dairies with heavy investment in mechanised/robot milking can survive and one man has to deal with 200 cows. I think we now import a lot of our milk from economies with lower wages.

 

[Stere]

If all  UK agri subs were  removed loads of smaller farmers would go out of buisness and  areas of marginal land in Wales and Scotland wouldn't be worth farming anymore so would re-wild. Something thats happened already in  many EU countries.

 

Rewilding: as farmland and villages are abandoned, forests, wolves and bears are returning to Europe

THECONVERSATION.COM

---

The abandonment of crops and pastures allows the natural regeneration of bushes and forests and the recolonization of...

 

 

Also much  food imported is subsidized by other goverments  and cheaper to produce  so UK farmers couldn't compete on price with thoose imports.

 

Edited December 16, 2020 by Stere

[Youngstu]

10 minutes ago, Stere said:

If all  UK agri subs were  removed loads of smaller farmers would go out of buisness and  areas of marginal land in Wales and Scotland wouldn't be worth farming anymore so would re-wild. Something thats happened already in  many EU countries.

 

Rewilding: as farmland and villages are abandoned, forests, wolves and bears are returning to Europe

THECONVERSATION.COM

---

The abandonment of crops and pastures allows the natural regeneration of bushes and forests and the recolonization of...

 

 

Also much  food imported is subsidized by other goverments  and cheaper to produce  so UK farmers couldn't compete on price with thoose imports.

 

Ecologically this would be a good thing, being one of the most depleted nations in terms of wildlife. Economically and socially this would obviously be an awful thing for those directly affected but due to the tiny proportion of the population and the economy this would have a minimal effect nationally. There are many very good arguments that a policy encouraging the rewilding and the abandonment of unsustainable agriculture could actually be a good thing for the local people as newly available recreational opportunities, as well as others would have the potential to provide more jobs and income (self sustaining ) then the current models provide. 

[trigger_andy]

21 minutes ago, openspaceman said:

Farming is a volatile thing, some years there is glut and some scarcity. Farmers do well in scarcity because of the price elasticity of food, when you have insufficient you will pay a lot but as soon as you are satisfied you will buy no more at any price. The government intervenes  to stabilise prices and when we originally joined the common market this europe wide intervention caused  various food mountains and attracted a lot of fraud, not to mention the cost of administering the scheme  in wages for two levels of civil servants.. While the CAP seemed to favour poor farmers in France its effect here was the opposite with big landowners gaining immensely while small marginal farmers struggled.

 

My first job was on a dairy farm and a herd of 35 cows paid one man;s wages, now because of price pressure on milk (supermarkets pay less than cost of production) only big dairies with heavy investment in mechanised/robot milking can survive and one man has to deal with 200 cows. I think we now import a lot of our milk from economies with lower wages.

 

I understand the glut verses scarcity point but do think it runs far deeper than that. Without the subsidies I doubt many farmers could keep going even if they put money made in scares times away to cover the glut periods. Prices still fluctuate due to disease and weather conditions, ie flooding and drought. Admittedly not as much as with out the subsidies but I really cant see Farmers making a living off of the prices they get for their produce if they where not heavily subsidised.  Is that to stop wild swings in the market price or is it to allow everyone to continue to afford staple produce at the expense of those that pay tax? I suspect a bit of both but leaning more towards a steady flow of cheap produce to keep the masses fed. Fed and watered masses dont tend to revolt. The Romans taught us that.  Instead of the Circus we religiously follow sports such as Football. 

 

What we've allowed to happen to the Dairies is shocking really. I still remember walking to the local Dairy in Braemar as a kid with my Mum to take a jug/container down to collect some milk. I made some pocket money as a 12 year old helping on the Dairy Farm we used to rent a cottage on. That was a one man operation.  

 

Surely these big dairies can only afford to invest in mechanised milking if they are being heavily subsidised considering they are being paid less than the production cost of the milk?  Its like they are almost giving the milk away for free and making a living off of the subsidies. We in turn pay a few pence per pint of milk at POS but not really realising we're paying through the nose for it because as we're paying  taxes we're paying for the portion that those who dont pay tax are not paying as well. 

 

At least where I come from the milk is all local. Grahams springs to mind. The biggest player in Scotland (I believe) Is Wisemans, but they are not even Scottish owned anymore. But we have loads of Dairy farms round our way still, good beef as well but that can only be expected from the heartlands of Aberdeen Angus.  

 

These are of course my uneducated musings, but an interesting subject none the less. 

Edited December 16, 2020 by trigger_andy

[openspaceman]

32 minutes ago, trigger_andy said:

Surely these big dairies can only afford to invest in mechanised milking if they are being heavily subsidised

Not necessarily if they are a part of a large farming business, they will have a bigger proportion of subsidies, their accountants will make sure of that but as with any investment in capital equipment the rate of return on investment will favour a big capital spend that eliminates a unit of labour.

 

We saw this in my industry when harvesters came in, two men working long shifts displaced about 20 men doing motor manual harvesting with tractors and trailers. That they messed up the soil structure and the matrix of trees in thinnings was one of the unforeseen outcomes, life adapts to change but it gets harder as you get older. Being a grumpy old man I don't see the advantage of much of it.

32 minutes ago, trigger_andy said:

 

At least where I come from the milk is all local. Grahams springs to mind. The biggest player in Scotland (I believe) Is Wisemans, but they are not even Scottish owned anymore. But we have loads of Dairy farms round our way still, good beef as well but that can only be expected from the heartlands of Aberdeen Angus.  

 

Could this be to do with transport costs and population density? My father was born in Aberdeen but AFAIK he never went back to scotland after childhood till I threw him off big ben.

[trigger_andy]

Just now, openspaceman said:

Not necessarily if they are a part of a large farming business, they will have a bigger proportion of subsidies, their accountants will make sure of that but as with any investment in capital equipment the rate of return on investment will favour a big capital spend that eliminates a unit of labour.

 

 

 

Its all way above my paygrade but if the Product the Dairies are selling is at a point below the breakeven, or even at the breakeven cost then profit has to come from another source surely? Additionally the Government will want/need to keep the production of Dairy products flowing to feed the masses so surely that has to come from Subsidies? Unless maybe Cream, butter, cheese etc are all making enough of a profit that allows milk to be dished out for free? 

 

4 minutes ago, openspaceman said:

Could this be to do with transport costs and population density? My father was born in Aberdeen but AFAIK he never went back to scotland after childhood till I threw him off big ben.

Could well be? Really dont know, but I do like Grahams milk, its the proper stuff with the cream at the top of the bottle like the good old days.  We get it in our local Tescos. Toyed with the idea of getting milk delivered again as there is one local firm that might come out as far as us but we buy Organic Milk for the kids. 

 

Gold Top | Graham's Family Dairy

WWW.GRAHAMSFAMILYDAIRY.COM

 

Not sure what you mean when you say you threw your old man off of Big Ben? 

[eggsarascal]

Small scale dairy farming is, or should be criminal in this country. We do some work at Hollesly Bay Colony, the 'main' pumping station there takes the local farm. The effluent in there is always white and causes odours when it's pumped off site.

 

I went to see the farmer one day to ask him why he was putting milk down the drains, he replied, "I'm not big enough to get two tankers in, so if the cows produce more than one tanker full the rest goes down the drain".

[trigger_andy]

Just now, eggsarascal said:

Small scale dairy farming is, or should be criminal in this country. We do some work at Hollesly Bay Colony, the 'main' pumping station there takes the local farm. The effluent in there is always white and causes odours when it's pumped off site.

 

I went to see the farmer one day to ask him why he was putting milk down the drains, he replied, "I'm not big enough to get two tankers in, so if the cows produce more than one tanker full the rest goes down the drain".

Criminal? Criminal that the small scale and Id assume more ethical Farmer that actually cares about his small heard should be banned because of large scale Farms practices? 

 

It is criminal he has to pour good milk down the drain but I think your pointing your finger in the wrong direction here. 

 

I cant tell if you're being facetious or not though?