The beauty of the Tax System

[GardenKit]

2 minutes ago, trigger_andy said:

Quite, but its always people paying the minimum tax suggesting that we all pay that bit more for the services we get, or to improve them. My tax it put up every bloody year for numerous heart string tugging reasons. I dont need the suggestion of more.  

Then a few quid a week to someone paying minimum tax would leave a much bigger hole in their market than the same amount would in yours, yet some, like me, would still be happy to pay.

I would still be happy to pay the same amount if I suddenly got rich.

[trigger_andy]

2 minutes ago, GardenKit said:

Then a few quid a week to someone paying minimum tax would leave a much bigger hole in their market than the same amount would in yours, yet some, like me, would still be happy to pay.

I would still be happy to pay the same amount if I suddenly got rich.

Why not just give 40-50% now? Have a little practice? See if you enjoy it?  Remember to refuse all other benefits. 

 

[Squaredy]

7 hours ago, openspaceman said:

It's a good rant but please correct me if I am wrong; isn't VAT the spawn of the common market? Prior to that we had various forms of purchase tax which were far more pragmatic as they were taxed at the point of production. In a global economy that favours large multinationals it must be easier to levy a tax on a few big companies rather than having to police every small producer.

Yes Openspaceman, you are correct, VAT started when we joined the EU.  The EU require all member states to levy VAT of at least 15% on most items.

[AHPP]

1 hour ago, westphalian said:

You lot are cynical. What’s up with taking him at face value ie he means what’s he says? Very admirable when one admits when they are wrong. If I am ever wrong one day I hope to be able to admit it.

Sorry to disappoint...

[trigger_andy]

1 minute ago, AHPP said:

Sorry to disappoint...

Ha ha ha, bloody knew it!  I'll keep my Cynic Badge a while longer I think.  

 

 

[Thesnarlingbadger]

Tax is always going to get on people’s tits, who likes giving money to someone who they don’t know personally and letting someone else decide where it all goes. People moaning about their library closing down because the government aren’t doing enough to keep it open but then kicking off because they have to wait a month for an operation that they don’t need on the nhs, just for the record I think library’s are great but the world is changing and I haven’t been to one in at least 5 years (we have the internet now and if I really want a book I go on amazon and buy it.

I do think that the people should have more of a vote as to where our tax is spent. I have no issue paying tax and we do need to but let’s be fair we need more money for the nhs and less being spent on keeping parliament in there 2nd homes.

Yes the whole thing is complicated and gives me a headache just thinking about it but that’s what an accountant is there for, yes they will cost you money but they will save you more than they cost and if you get a good one they will teach you how to do there job to an extent saving you more money.

All up for paying more tax but not if it’s used for crap nobody needs. And yes I don’t believe you should be penalised for doing well but you pay more after you earn more the multi-billion pound companies owners are still rich people they just pay more to the government. If you are that concerned about giving the government your hard earned cash then stop drinking and smoking. The first of those I am stopping as they can have my money if it gives me a fuzzy walk feeling.

I don’t understand it all but I’m happier if I have more work and as long as my family are fine then I am too.

Just my 2 pence.

[Billhook]

 

10 hours ago, Squaredy said:

You are so right Rob our tax system is ludicrous.  Nonsensical.  Utterly unintelligible and so complicated even the experts often don't agree.

 

Here is my suggestion.  Scrap income tax and NI completely.  make up the shortfall by increasing VAT, but not evenly.  High value, luxury goods taxed higher with various different rates.  Maybe basic items 5% going up to expensive unnecessary luxuries 100% or even more.  I know you may not like that Rob (I also have to do regular VAT returns so I know the pain) but on the other hand think of the time it will save with PAYE and NI!  And imagine how much incentive there will be to do well for each individual to know they keep every penny they earn and they only pay tax when they buy stuff.  The only high tax payers would be high spenders - high tax payers by choice.

 

Another suggestion along very similar lines - scrap business rates.  Instead add a few percent to corporation tax to make up the loss.  Business rates are possibly the most ludicrous, unfair complicated and nonsensical tax of them all.  I am currently challenging the business rates assessment on one smallish building I occupy, and frankly it is a joke.  I was told by one solicitor who specialises in these matters that 40,000 appeals are being submitted each month currently - due to so many assessments being wrong.

 

As you say, of course we need to pay tax, but how did it ever come to this???????

Ok  to take this further in another bit of Billhook lateral thinking.

 

There are three things that are certain.  Death, Taxes and Change.

 

I propose a system that would have to rely on smart cards to automatically send say 1% to the government on every transaction and take cash out of the equation.

 

Every transaction would be taxed  but at this very low rate   Hopefully people would find this so small that they would not try to avoid paying it and because of the large amounts of one per cent transactions taking place and the total collection without the need for checks and accounts people would be happier to pay and maybe more tax would be raised.  If one per cent turned out not to be enough it could easily be pushed up but hopefully still kept at such a low level that people would not mind.  A little and often drip drip effect.

 

So the producer pays 1% on all his raw materials and then when he sells his product on up through the chain to the super market and final customer each pays 1% on each transaction.  There would be no claiming back of tax to take out a raft of current bureaucracy which makes the current system so inefficient.

Any perceived inequalities on poorer people would be rectified by the benefits system.

 

Big flaw in my system is what to do with all the out of work VAT officers, tax collectors and accountants!

[Stubby]

11 hours ago, westphalian said:

You lot are cynical. What’s up with taking him at face value ie he means what’s he says? Very admirable when one admits when they are wrong. If I am ever wrong one day I hope to be able to admit it.

If you look back I did say that was big of him .

[Rob D]

14 hours ago, Squaredy said:

You are so right Rob our tax system is ludicrous.  Nonsensical.  Utterly unintelligible and so complicated even the experts often don't agree.

 

Here is my suggestion.  Scrap income tax and NI completely.  make up the shortfall by increasing VAT, but not evenly.  High value, luxury goods taxed higher with various different rates.  Maybe basic items 5% going up to expensive unnecessary luxuries 100% or even more.  I know you may not like that Rob (I also have to do regular VAT returns so I know the pain) but on the other hand think of the time it will save with PAYE and NI!  And imagine how much incentive there will be to do well for each individual to know they keep every penny they earn and they only pay tax when they buy stuff.  The only high tax payers would be high spenders - high tax payers by choice.

 

Another suggestion along very similar lines - scrap business rates.  Instead add a few percent to corporation tax to make up the loss.  Business rates are possibly the most ludicrous, unfair complicated and nonsensical tax of them all.  I am currently challenging the business rates assessment on one smallish building I occupy, and frankly it is a joke.  I was told by one solicitor who specialises in these matters that 40,000 appeals are being submitted each month currently - due to so many assessments being wrong.

 

As you say, of course we need to pay tax, but how did it ever come to this???????

 

I reckon these are great ideas - simplifies things. Things have to be simplified - the staffing cost to back up and manage all the different rules and regs create a tax burden by themselves! 40,000 appeals !? Think of the time and money that goes into them - completely non productive... it is madness.

 

 

 

[Rob D]

12 hours ago, Thesnarlingbadger said:

Tax is always going to get on people’s tits, who likes giving money to someone who they don’t know personally and letting someone else decide where it all goes. People moaning about their library closing down because the government aren’t doing enough to keep it open but then kicking off because they have to wait a month for an operation that they don’t need on the nhs, just for the record I think library’s are great but the world is changing and I haven’t been to one in at least 5 years (we have the internet now and if I really want a book I go on amazon and buy it.

I do think that the people should have more of a vote as to where our tax is spent. I have no issue paying tax and we do need to but let’s be fair we need more money for the nhs and less being spent on keeping parliament in there 2nd homes.

Yes the whole thing is complicated and gives me a headache just thinking about it but that’s what an accountant is there for, yes they will cost you money but they will save you more than they cost and if you get a good one they will teach you how to do there job to an extent saving you more money.

All up for paying more tax but not if it’s used for crap nobody needs. And yes I don’t believe you should be penalised for doing well but you pay more after you earn more the multi-billion pound companies owners are still rich people they just pay more to the government. If you are that concerned about giving the government your hard earned cash then stop drinking and smoking. The first of those I am stopping as they can have my money if it gives me a fuzzy walk feeling.

I don’t understand it all but I’m happier if I have more work and as long as my family are fine then I am too.

Just my 2 pence.

 

I do get where you're coming from but to clarify a few of the points you make:

• We are not looking at whether we pay tax or not. It's clear we need to pay tax, we need schools, we need hospitals, we need a welfare system - we are looking at how that tax is calculated and collected.
• I go to the library regularly with my daughter - they often run groups from a library and I'd say these are valuable resources.
• I worked 4 years in the NHS and I can tell you point blank the waste and the way things are carried out is shocking. The NHS has become like politics - management look to kiss upwards ie. as long as their boss is happy they are happy. Plugging more money into a badly managed system will not give better care. I left the NHS because of this - it is so silly you are unable to actually do your job. It is more important covering your backside against potential litigation than looking after patients!!
• Accountants save you more than they cost - true - but only because the system is set up in that way. You sya you don't understand it - it's because it's too complicated. My arguement is the system needs to be simplified so ok you still have an accountant, they still save you money - but maybe they only cost 10-15% of what they cost now.
• The rich do not pay tax. The big corporations do not pay tax. If you are rich you set up trusts in places like the Channel Islands and other offshore havens. Big multi national corporations do not pay nearly as much tax as they should and there is no way of making them. You can Google this - it is known but gov seems powerless to make them pay.

So if you are rich enough to bank offshore or your business is large enough to be a full multi national then you don't pay tax or if you do it's a fraction of the tax you should pay. That needs to change and be more easily enforceable.