Alternative ways to structure a tree business?

[kevinjohnsonmbe]

Great thread!

 

It's way off spec, and kind of out of kilter with my personal perspective (and I reckon there's a fair chance Mr E will take issue with me!)...  But I'm minded to think of the John Lewis / Waitrose model (so far as I understand it.)  

 

Select and employ above the minimum spec for the job and provide share dividend bonuses on a sliding scale.

 

Where (I think) Mr E may disagree, is that I personally believe some people are employees and some are employers - or to put it another way - some have aspiration, determination and ambition, and some don't.  No disrespect to either party, but some people want to know what time to be at work, what to do whilst there and what time they finish - if nobody tells them what to do, they do nothing until somebody tells them.  Then they don't think about work again until the cycle recommences.  

 

Some people set them selves up for challenge and put more in than is required, these are the people that either move on or get promoted.

 

There is no system that solves the problem because whatever system is introduced, someone will find a way to take advantage of it.  

 

One place I worked had a scheme where scrap was weighed in for the Christmas bash - it was a humdinger of epic proportions....  30 odd blokes, fed watered and entertained like aristocrats.  After having been there for several months I became aware that 1 man was constantly engaged in stripping the insulation off aviation grade copper wire and that the wire was being requisitioned by the reel for the sole purpose of being stripped and weighed in.  Thankfully, I'd moved on before the Christmas bash - that's the public sector for ya!

 

Another local epic in the SW (and soon to be Merthyr) is Trago Mills.  Dear old Bruce is a wiley fecker.  There is no 'factory outlet' or 'damaged goods staff shop' because he trusts no one...  Reason being, staff member wants a knock down price on the latest gadget - they scratch / bang / whack it, then send it to the staff discount area where they pick it up for a song.

 

I think the question you ask goes to the very heart of the socialism v capitalism debate and there simply isn't an easy answer....   

[eggsarascal]

22 hours ago, kevinjohnsonmbe said:

Great thread!

 

It's way off spec, and kind of out of kilter with my personal perspective (and I reckon there's a fair chance Mr E will take issue with me!)...  But I'm minded to think of the John Lewis / Waitrose model (so far as I understand it.)  

 

Select and employ above the minimum spec for the job and provide share dividend bonuses on a sliding scale.

 

Where (I think) Mr E may disagree, is that I personally believe some people are employees and some are employers - or to put it another way - some have aspiration, determination and ambition, and some don't.  No disrespect to either party, but some people want to know what time to be at work, what to do whilst there and what time they finish - if nobody tells them what to do, they do nothing until somebody tells them.  Then they don't think about work again until the cycle recommences.  

 

Some people set them selves up for challenge and put more in than is required, these are the people that either move on or get promoted.

 

There is no system that solves the problem because whatever system is introduced, someone will find a way to take advantage of it.  

 

One place I worked had a scheme where scrap was weighed in for the Christmas bash - it was a humdinger of epic proportions....  30 odd blokes, fed watered and entertained like aristocrats.  After having been there for several months I became aware that 1 man was constantly engaged in stripping the insulation off aviation grade copper wire and that the wire was being requisitioned by the reel for the sole purpose of being stripped and weighed in.  Thankfully, I'd moved on before the Christmas bash - that's the public sector for ya!

 

Another local epic in the SW (and soon to be Merthyr) is Trago Mills.  Dear old Bruce is a wiley fecker.  There is no 'factory outlet' or 'damaged goods staff shop' because he trusts no one...  Reason being, staff member wants a knock down price on the latest gadget - they scratch / bang / whack it, then send it to the staff discount area where they pick it up for a song.

 

I think the question you ask goes to the very heart of the socialism v capitalism debate and there simply isn't an easy answer....   

I'm not sure why you think I would disagree with most you say. Indeed being employed does suit lots of folk,  Fair play to them. It wouldn't suit me mind.

 

I think the more pressing question is: Why are so many Tree Companies always having such a big turnover of staff?

 

Most of the companies that I work alongside seem to retain staff for years on end, same old faces turn up year after year.

 

Now, I'm sure they ain't 'having it away', just normal lads turning up for a days graft for a days pay. Maybe they turn up on time each day because it's a two way street...... I'll turn up on time, do my best and the boss man will pay me on time......

 

without having that 'I'm the boss prick like attitude'.

[kevinjohnsonmbe]

I'm not sure why you think I would disagree with most you say. Indeed being employed does suit lots of folk,  Fair play to them. It wouldn't suit me mind.
 
I think the more pressing question is: Why are so many Tree Companies always having such a big turnover of staff?
 
Most of the companies that I work alongside seem to retain staff for years on end, same old faces turn up year after year.
 
Now, I'm sure they ain't 'having it away', just normal lads turning up for a days graft for a days pay. Maybe they turn up on time each day because it's a two way street...... I'll turn up on time, do my best and the boss man will pay me on time......
 
without having that 'I'm the boss prick like attitude'.

It was the detail I was “thinking” about rather than that which I wrote which I thought we’d possibly be debating.

Poor post on my part really, it didn’t get across what I was thinking so well as I might have hoped.

Too complex for 2 thumbs on an iPhone!

[wjotner]

My idea is to have a weekly turnover target for your company (or team if you have more than 1 team). Any money earned by the teams over that target, they get a percentage bonus. That way, when your team works hard and ends up finishing a job early, but then get sent on to an extra job, they would then be rewarded for that hard work instead of feeling punished for it.

 

That way hopefully, they don't resent the boss making more money from the day when they've worked so hard, because now they're getting a cut of that extra money earned. 

 

But obviously, there will be days where a job overruns and others when stuff is finished early. So the bonus should be calculated on a weekly or monthly turnover target rather than daily.

 

Not sure about how to deal with broken or lost kit. It think if you have subbies, it should be deducted from their pay unless they can prove it wasn't their fault.

[billpierce]

My idea is to have a weekly turnover target for your company (or team if you have more than 1 team). Any money earned by the teams over that target, they get a percentage bonus. That way, when your team works hard and ends up finishing a job early, but then get sent on to an extra job, they would then be rewarded for that hard work instead of feeling punished for it.
 
That way hopefully, they don't resent the boss making more money from the day when they've worked so hard, because now they're getting a cut of that extra money earned. 
 
But obviously, there will be days where a job overruns and others when stuff is finished early. So the bonus should be calculated on a weekly or monthly turnover target rather than daily.
 
Not sure about how to deal with broken or lost kit. It think if you have subbies, it should be deducted from their pay unless they can prove it wasn't their fault.

Would you be happy paying for any damage to subbies kit if damaged?

That bonus idea sounds like a good incentive to work hard.....

Unsure of how to deal with kit damage. my feeling is if you're making money from other people working for you and they damage stuff then you gotta soak it up....get people in you can trust with kit. Accidents happen.

Winds me up when I see lads treating their bosses kit badly though...

[wjotner]

I think if kit gets broken because the job was tough and something went wrong, or general wear and tear then fair enough thats on the company. But if stuff is gets stolen or broken because of workers being negligent about security or being careless, then it should cost them, or else how will they value the price of equipment. Every company I've worked for has had that policy.

 

If a subbie's kit get's damaged while working it'll have been his own fault as he should be the only person using it.

 

I wouldn't expect subbie's to provide their own equipment beyond climbing gear and PPE though. 

[Gary Prentice]

22 hours ago, wjotner said:

Not sure about how to deal with broken or lost kit. It think if you have subbies, it should be deducted from their pay unless they can prove it wasn't their fault.

How to make friends and influence people   

[Mick Dempsey]

1 hour ago, wjotner said:

I think if kit gets broken because the job was tough and something went wrong, or general wear and tear then fair enough thats on the company. But if stuff is gets stolen or broken because of workers being negligent about security or being careless, then it should cost them, or else how will they value the price of equipment. Every company I've worked for has had that policy.

 

 

This has been discussed before, it’s illegal.

[htb]

22 minutes ago, wjotner said:

If a subbie's kit get's damaged while working it'll have been his own fault as he should be the only person using it.

Had ropes and lowering slings damaged by careless f...wit groundies when i've been freelancing. Don't do work for them now but just billed them for replacment

[Steve Bullman]

14 minutes ago, htb said:

Had ropes and lowering slings damaged by careless f...wit groundies when i've been freelancing. Don't do work for them now but just billed them for replacment

Likewise.  If someone damages or breaks my stuff they get billed the full price of a brand new replacement