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[the village idiot]

2 hours ago, TIMON said:

 

Thank you for your very well thought out and well written post.

You bring some very challenging questions.

Before I try to answer, I will say that it seems to me that you talk about science as though it has already answered all of the big questions and has totally disproved the possibility of a creator when in actual fact it hasn’t.

To make those claims for it is overreaching a bit far, I think, Graham.

Just because science tells us about the way things work, it doesn’t paint the complete picture. There are still massive gaps in scientific knowledge and to imply that science has irrefutably and completely disproven Christianity is simply not true.

I can understand your objections and questions about the perceived difference between God in the New and Old Testaments. I’ve asked the same hard questions of the texts myself to arrive at a place of faith in a loving and merciful, yet righteous and holy God.

Firstly, I don’t believe that God is different in either parts of the Bible. I believe that The Bible is the progressive revelation of God to his people through history.

I think that a lot of Christians have been guilty of trying to push the love and grace aspects of God’s character above his holiness and righteousness to try and apologise on his behalf to people who would prefer a more ‘manageable’ kind of God. If your hoping that I am going to make an attempt do that then I’m sorry to disappoint you.

Let’s be clear, the Bible teaches right the way through that the ‘fear of the Lord’ is the beginning of wisdom, or in other words the place from where you should start from.

In our post modern, enlightened, snowflake society, fear is seen only as a bad thing when in actual fact it serves a purpose. Healthy fear can keep us alive, it brings perspective and sharpens our focus. When I’m in the tree at work with my saw going I experience a healthy level of fear at times. The time when it stops and complacency takes over is the time that I’m in big danger.

I believe it is the same with God, a correct perspective of God has to start with a healthy level of fear before we can experience his love and mercy.

The Bible is also very clear that God will judge and punish wickedness, let’s be honest, look at the evil and depravity that can be cultivated in the human heart. If God exists and didn’t judge and punish wickedness he wouldn’t be very just. Say for instance, if someone killed your children and in court the judge let the killer off what would that say about the judge? It wouldn’t be justice and the judge wouldn’t be just.

In the times in the OT when God floods the Earth, only preserving a handful of people you will notice that it records that mankind has degenerated to unprecedented levels of depravity and God steps in. Likewise, in the case of Saul when he orders his people to kill others it was to execute his judgement on a culture that was heavily steeped in evil, including child sacrifice. God didn’t want that culture further contaminating his already troublesome children. This isn’t a complete list of these examples of difficult passages but hopefully it will serve to bring a bit of context to the accusations brought by atheists who have decided to bring their own moral judgement.

God punishes wickedness, he pours out his wrath in judgement.

BUT..... he shows mercy when people repent. You can read the book of Jonah to see that principle illustrated, in the Old Testament.

Which brings us to Jesus... The NT gospels give four different accounts of God clothing himself in human flesh and blood, making claims of his divinity, and then teaching the true heart and spirit behind Gods laws and commandments, performing supernatural miracles. The Bible teaches that he took upon himself the punishment for all of mankind’s sin and wickedness so that we could receive God’s forgiveness, which we accept by faith in Christ, his death and resurrection.

 

I’ll stop there and apologise for a very long winded retort to VI’s post but I wanted to honour the time and effort he had taken in writing it by way of a reply. I also wanted to represent my own beliefs and faith community as I know that I am in a minority.

 

It isn’t my intention to come on here and try and use this forum to push my beliefs or any agenda on anyone, but I will try and stand my ground in debate.

 

Just as an afterthought, back on the subject of charities, The Czech Republic is statistically the most atheist country in Europe buts has absolutely no charity culture to speak of. I know this because Betel has a centre there.

Contrast that with Britain which has a rich culture of charitable work and organisations.

I don’t think it is any coincidence that Britain also has a long heritage of the Christian social gospel at work.

 

Similarly, you don’t find any secular drug rehab programmes that achieve any significant results.

 

Thanks

 

Fantastic Ti

 

These open and honest exchanges of thought are so important. People who hold my views on this are so often branded troublesome bullies or even evil. Your willingness to engage fully is really refreshing. I think we both appreciate the crucial importance of finding the correct answer on this. We both want to see humanity flourish in the best possible way.

 

There is a lot to say in response to your post. Woodland duties call, but I'll give you my thoughts this evening.

[difflock]

How very, very boring from a spectator perspective, re the two reasoned posts above.

Yawn.

mth

[the village idiot]

12 hours ago, WesD said:

A lot of this post implies he has made choices and is in control of what to adhere too and what to discount? I thought we had solved this on the free will thread?! Surely we cant blame the charities and the people managing them as they aren’t really culpable, so to speak. 

 

Getting back into the fascinating free will debate here will cause too much of a distraction. Very happy to discuss it in the free will thread.

 

In short, the confusion here arises from looking at free will from a different depth of focus. Taking a 'stepped back' view of the decision making process gives the strong illusion of free will. When you zoom in to look at the mechanics of any decision at the point it is made, you find that a person could not possibly have acted any differently from the way that they did in any given moment. This fact, by extension dissolves the notion of free will. This has important implications for the way we structure society and the motivations behind punishment. It is an extremely unintuitive concept which takes a lot more explaining than I want to do here. The language one has to use to try to explain it also totally muddies the waters, but unfortunately there is no good way around this.

 

 

 

[Stubby]

Gun man goes on the rampage killing many in a school in Florida .....

[Gary Prentice]

17 was the last count I saw. 

[Vespasian]

I used to find myself reading these sorts of stories with seething contempt for american attitudes to gun ownership, then a few days later it'd be acceptance..

Acceptance that nothing is ever gonna get Americans to change their gun laws.. and so, these days I tend to look at these events as acts of nature as best I can..

 

The price you pay to keep the laws you have...   getting sad, getting annoyed ain't gonna make no difference no way..  read the story, move on to the next one.. they don't care, why should we?.

 

Edited February 15, 2018 by Vespasian

[tree-fancier123]

Yes, guns killing everyone -

Someone said after the last school masacre about arming the teachers so they can return fire, if a teacher heard shots down the hall they may have time to take aim at the doorway to their classroom.

 

also the Times has 'Ready meals and cereals linked with rise in cancer'. A million ways to die.

Edited February 15, 2018 by tree-fancier123

[tree-fancier123]

On 14/02/2018 at 09:00, scotspine1 said:

 

You haven't read her book so you're displaying a lack of openness to evidence. You're copy/pasting second hand criticism of her. Then posting links by your atheist guru Sam Harris.

 

Well done. 

 

Agree - even if she does work for the  vampire squid her ideas make perfect sense to me. Good on her.

As for Sam Harris all he seems to say is 'follow me I know the way' - like a pseudoscience Jesus. I'm an Athiest too, but I wouldn't give Sam Harris the skin off a bucket of cold piss.

[eggsarascal]

Anyone just heard Trump speaking about the latest school shooting?

 

Not a mention of guns!

 

He said Mental health seemed to be the problem. I wonder where he got that speil from?

 

18 School shootings already this year in the good ol' USofA (That stat blew my mind). 

 

No problem with Everyman and his dog having a gun. It's all down to mental health problems.

[WesD]

On 13/02/2018 at 18:21, WesD said:

If you have kids or intend to have kids would/do you raise them to the best of your abilities and share your wisdom whilst placing them in the best school/s for education you can to ofer them a good chance at life OR do you think f@ck it I can’t be arsed what difference will my kids make to the world?

 

@matelot please take your time to answer that honestly. 

@matelot?