Making the news today....

[matelot]

4 minutes ago, Richard 1234 said:

Don’t read/watch the news if you don’t like it.
The bbc does do some good tv now and then (not a huge fan of tv) and I’d rather pay the £120(? I’ve no clue how much it is as the boss deals with it!) than have to watch crappy adverts! If I watch anything on other channels I pre record and fast forward the ads!

I still have to pay the BBC tax even if I don't watch the BBC....

 

Honestly, the amount of sneering the BBC manages to fit into programmes unrelated to Brexit and Trump is amazing.

[breffni]

The licence fee is worth paying if only for the amount of anger it causes people like matelot. Why don't you stop watching bbc news matelot? Listen to radio 4 or 6 music. Loads of non trump related content on both. 

[Richard 1234]

I still have to pay the BBC tax even if I don't watch the BBC....
 
Honestly, the amount of sneering the BBC manages to fit into programmes unrelated to Brexit and Trump is amazing.

Not true you don’t have to pay it! Bin your tv and stop paying.
Or stop moaning about it
Besides it worth it for the planet earth type programmes that would not be made by any other channel

[TIMON]

I don't think we are in disagreement that some types of aid relief are counter productive. My argument is simply that there are objectively good ways to help people in need. We shouldn't stop all aid because some of it isn't helping.

This app won’t let me quote the previous paragraphs of your post and it’s these that I refer to.


Ok I’m going to get to the point that you fail to see or are unwilling to accept.
I’m not sure what you mean by baggage....... but
The truth of the Gospel, IS about helping people, showing love, healing the sick, caring for the elderly, visiting those in prison, feeding the hungry.
Caring for the orphan and the widow.
Loving mercy, walking humbly etc..

Why do you (or Sam Harris) have a problem with that ?

The organisation I work with is Christian but we partner with many organisations that aren’t to get the job done.

I think that the so called New Atheism is one of the least tolerant of all the belief systems in the world today because they actively and very aggressively seek the eradication of all other beliefs.

(With respect as always)

[emoji106]

[devon TWiG]

just wanted to say I think it is great that on this thread , that politics and religion, usually 2 subjects that are avoided , are discussed without many being oversensitive or offensive ,  just goes to show what a nice bunch of lib-tard fascist , snowflake god-bothering tree butchers we all are !!!

[Richard 1234]

This app won’t let me quote the previous paragraphs of your post and it’s these that I refer to.


Ok I’m going to get to the point that you fail to see or are unwilling to accept.
I’m not sure what you mean by baggage....... but
The truth of the Gospel, IS about helping people, showing love, healing the sick, caring for the elderly, visiting those in prison, feeding the hungry.
Caring for the orphan and the widow.
Loving mercy, walking humbly etc..

Why do you (or Sam Harris) have a problem with that ?

The organisation I work with is Christian but we partner with many organisations that aren’t to get the job done.

I think that the so called New Atheism is one of the least tolerant of all the belief systems in the world today because they actively and very aggressively seek the eradication of all other beliefs.

(With respect as always)

[emoji106][/quote
I think you give yourself too little credit for kicking the drug habit you had.
It wasn’t god that stopped you doing what you did it was you.
If religion helped you then great but it’s not for everyone.

[emoji106]

[eggsarascal]

1 hour ago, devon TWiG said:

just wanted to say I think it is great that on this thread , that politics and religion, usually 2 subjects that are avoided , are discussed without many being oversensitive or offensive ,  just goes to show what a nice bunch of lib-tard fascist , snowflake god-bothering tree butchers we all are !!!

Don't call me a tree butcher!

[the village idiot]

8 minutes ago, TIMON said:

Ok I’m going to get to the point that you fail to see or are unwilling to accept.
I’m not sure what you mean by baggage....... but
The truth of the Gospel, IS about helping people, showing love, healing the sick, caring for the elderly, visiting those in prison, feeding the hungry.
Caring for the orphan and the widow.
Loving mercy, walking humbly etc..

Why do you (or Sam Harris) have a problem with that ?

If the very admirable ethics you list above were all that were in the texts you would have a very good moral guide to life. There is a big problem however in highlighting the good and ignoring the bad to demonstrate that something is true.

 

The deeds that you mention are the teachings that YOU have decided are good to follow, and they are the same morals that any decent person would choose to live out. God's instructions to his flock are to obey his every word. If all of society did this the results would be catastophic.

 

True adherents to the word of the Christian God would be doing good things sometimes and at other times be indistinguishable from Isis.

 

They would be stoning homosexuals to death.

 

They would be stoning their wives to death on their father in law's doorstep if their wife had slept with another man at any time before they were married.

 

They would be stoning their children to death if they answered back

 

They would be not beating their slaves so hard that they damage their eyes or their teeth.

 

The reason Christians are not doing these things is because they have decided that the perfect God was wrong about these things.

 

God is a moral monster in half his moods. Jesus is God and also states very clearly that his presense doesn't change one jot of the law dictated in the old testament.

 

Christianity (although it will never admit it) has forsaken God in favour of human morality. Rejecting the notion of God frees humanity to focus purely on what is best for humanity without all the savagery. We are not perfect at this but we are getting better. The biggest obstacle in our way is religion.

 

We can take some of the good advice from the Bible (there is plenty in there) but it is important to note that Christianity did not invent goodness. People were looking after each other long before Christ came along.

 

Christianity has managed to reform itself by slowly and very reluctantly conceding to the undeniable facts revealed by science. This is fantastic but there is still a long way to go. The Christian fundamentalists are to this day blocking the rights of gay people to be happy, blocking stem cell research which can bring an end to the suffering of millions and blocking the access to birth control in the developing world causing huge amounts of needless suffering and death.

 

All this is directly attributable to the fact that millions of people refuse to stop believing in an unbelievable book.

 

Modern day Christians are radically less harmful than they used to be, but it is crucial to realise that clinging on to the concept of the divine God provides cover for the other religions that are doing huge amounts of damage. The USA lands bombs on fundamentalist Muslims boomin 'God bless America' on the launchpad. This is truly insane and only adds rocket fuel to the fire.

 

There is absolutely no good reason to believe that God exists. HUMANS have decided what is good in the good book, and HUMANS have decided to disect out what is bad. Science proves the Bible wrong every single time they come into conflict. We need to acknowledge this fact, dispense with world fracturing religions and work towards the flourishing of all concious creatures based on what we discover to be true. Bending over backwards to try to justify the impossible and hold onto faith in the divine is needlessly prolonging suffering and holding humanity back.

 

We can do all the good things that Christians undoubtedly do without fooling ourselves in the process and forcing ourselves down harmful paths.

[kevinjohnsonmbe]

2 hours ago, difflock said:

My wife, still speaks highly of the Salvation Army, from memories of her Glasgow childhood, when some of the neighbours/distant relations  used to take her to some of their events.

Essentially, by the people for the people, organised from within the communities that needed the help, by those that could.

And "hands on".

This may have changed in the 40 years since.

In respect of the current fad for food banks, far better to organise a soup-kitchen, using church halls, or bingo halls, and actually feed the people, and give them a chance to speak.

Hey it might even help to encourage some of them to learn to cook, the lack of this skill directly contributing to so-called food poverty.

Ummmm...  Sally Army.  

 

UK ROI HQ listed as (image 1)

 

Building looks like (image 2)

 

What about this bad boy in the City? (image 3) some serious real estate going on there for a "charity."

Some BS overheads going on there....

 

 

 

Edited February 14, 2018 by kevinjohnsonmbe

[TIMON]

If the very admirable ethics you list above were all that were in the texts you would have a very good moral guide to life. There is a big problem however in highlighting the good and ignoring the bad to demonstrate that something is true.

 

The deeds that you mention are the teachings that YOU have decided are good to follow, and they are the same morals that any decent person would choose to live out. God's instructions to his flock are to obey his every word. If all of society did this the results would be catastophic.

 

True adherents to the word of the Christian God would be doing good things sometimes and at other times be indistinguishable from Isis.

 

They would be stoning homosexuals to death.

 

They would be stoning their wives to death on their father in law's doorstep if their wife had slept with another man at any time before they were married.

 

They would be stoning their children to death if they answered back

 

They would be not beating their slaves so hard that they damage their eyes or their teeth.

 

The reason Christians are not doing these things is because they have decided that the perfect God was wrong about these things.

 

God is a moral monster in half his moods. Jesus is God and also states very clearly that his presense doesn't change one jot of the law dictated in the old testament.

 

Christianity (although it will never admit it) has forsaken God in favour of human morality. Rejecting the notion of God frees humanity to focus purely on what is best for humanity without all the savagery. We are not perfect at this but we are getting better. The biggest obstacle in our way is religion.

 

We can take some of the good advice from the Bible (there is plenty in there) but it is important to note that Christianity did not invent goodness. People were looking after each other long before Christ came along.

 

Christianity has managed to reform itself by slowly and very reluctantly conceding to the undeniable facts revealed by science. This is fantastic but there is still a long way to go. The Christian fundamentalists are to this day blocking the rights of gay people to be happy, blocking stem cell research which can bring an end to the suffering of millions and blocking the access to birth control in the developing world causing huge amounts of needless suffering and death.

 

All this is directly attributable to the fact that millions of people refuse to stop believing in an unbelievable book.

 

Modern day Christians are radically less harmful than they used to be, but it is crucial to realise that clinging on to the concept of the divine God provides cover for the other religions that are doing huge amounts of damage. The USA lands bombs on fundamentalist Muslims boomin 'God bless America' on the launchpad. This is truly insane and only adds rocket fuel to the fire.

 

There is absolutely no good reason to believe that God exists. HUMANS have decided what is good in the good book, and HUMANS have decided to disect out what is bad. Science proves the Bible wrong every single time they come into conflict. We need to acknowledge this fact, dispense with world fracturing religions and work towards the flourishing of all concious creatures based on what we discover to be true. Bending over backwards to try to justify the impossible and hold onto faith in the divine is needlessly prolonging suffering and holding humanity back.

 

We can do all the good things that Christians undoubtedly do without fooling ourselves in the process and forcing ourselves down harmful paths.

 

Thank you for your very well thought out and well written post.

You bring some very challenging questions.

Before I try to answer, I will say that it seems to me that you talk about science as though it has already answered all of the big questions and has totally disproved the possibility of a creator when in actual fact it hasn’t.

To make those claims for it is overreaching a bit far, I think, Graham.

Just because science tells us about the way things work, it doesn’t paint the complete picture. There are still massive gaps in scientific knowledge and to imply that science has irrefutably and completely disproven Christianity is simply not true.

I can understand your objections and questions about the perceived difference between God in the New and Old Testaments. I’ve asked the same hard questions of the texts myself to arrive at a place of faith in a loving and merciful, yet righteous and holy God.

Firstly, I don’t believe that God is different in either parts of the Bible. I believe that The Bible is the progressive revelation of God to his people through history.

I think that a lot of Christians have been guilty of trying to push the love and grace aspects of God’s character above his holiness and righteousness to try and apologise on his behalf to people who would prefer a more ‘manageable’ kind of God. If your hoping that I am going to make an attempt do that then I’m sorry to disappoint you.

Let’s be clear, the Bible teaches right the way through that the ‘fear of the Lord’ is the beginning of wisdom, or in other words the place from where you should start from.

In our post modern, enlightened, snowflake society, fear is seen only as a bad thing when in actual fact it serves a purpose. Healthy fear can keep us alive, it brings perspective and sharpens our focus. When I’m in the tree at work with my saw going I experience a healthy level of fear at times. The time when it stops and complacency takes over is the time that I’m in big danger.

I believe it is the same with God, a correct perspective of God has to start with a healthy level of fear before we can experience his love and mercy.

The Bible is also very clear that God will judge and punish wickedness, let’s be honest, look at the evil and depravity that can be cultivated in the human heart. If God exists and didn’t judge and punish wickedness he wouldn’t be very just. Say for instance, if someone killed your children and in court the judge let the killer off what would that say about the judge? It wouldn’t be justice and the judge wouldn’t be just.

In the times in the OT when God floods the Earth, only preserving a handful of people you will notice that it records that mankind has degenerated to unprecedented levels of depravity and God steps in. Likewise, in the case of Saul when he orders his people to kill others it was to execute his judgement on a culture that was heavily steeped in evil, including child sacrifice. God didn’t want that culture further contaminating his already troublesome children. This isn’t a complete list of these examples of difficult passages but hopefully it will serve to bring a bit of context to the accusations brought by atheists who have decided to bring their own moral judgement.

God punishes wickedness, he pours out his wrath in judgement.

BUT..... he shows mercy when people repent. You can read the book of Jonah to see that principle illustrated, in the Old Testament.

Which brings us to Jesus... The NT gospels give four different accounts of God clothing himself in human flesh and blood, making claims of his divinity, and then teaching the true heart and spirit behind Gods laws and commandments, performing supernatural miracles. The Bible teaches that he took upon himself the punishment for all of mankind’s sin and wickedness so that we could receive God’s forgiveness, which we accept by faith in Christ, his death and resurrection.

 

I’ll stop there and apologise for a very long winded retort to VI’s post but I wanted to honour the time and effort he had taken in writing it by way of a reply. I also wanted to represent my own beliefs and faith community as I know that I am in a minority.

 

It isn’t my intention to come on here and try and use this forum to push my beliefs or any agenda on anyone, but I will try and stand my ground in debate.

 

Just as an afterthought, back on the subject of charities, The Czech Republic is statistically the most atheist country in Europe buts has absolutely no charity culture to speak of. I know this because Betel has a centre there.

Contrast that with Britain which has a rich culture of charitable work and organisations.

I don’t think it is any coincidence that Britain also has a long heritage of the Christian social gospel at work.

 

Similarly, you don’t find any secular drug rehab programmes that achieve any significant results.

 

Thanks [emoji106]