Making the news today....

[eggsarascal]

8 minutes ago, matelot said:

In the UK there are hundreds of mansions that were built from exploiting the British working classes. Maybe we should all get together and tear them down? They are evil monuments of the greed and inhumanity of the industrialists of the Victorian era.

 

How about Waterloo station as well? It's just downright evil that we have a train station named after a battle where we killed so many French. It's just downright sick.

 

As for Trafalgar square. Well we should also tear down that statue of Nelson the French killer.

 

I think President Trump says what many people think. We all know that there are violent agitators on both sides in Charlottesville. This idea that it's all the fault of the right wing is clearly preposterous. 

 

If the the winning and losing sides of the American civil war can live in peace I think the African Americans can as well....

Trumps been condemned by many world leaders, both left and right

 

funny how he revised his speech when people didn't like what he first said.

 

He doesn't know if he's coming or going.

[Haironyourchest]

42 minutes ago, Aicchalmers said:

The thing is these statues aren't historical artefacts from that era - they were erected in the 1910's and 50's when, guess who, the KKK and other groups were having a time of most popularity. Out of the second era as a reaction came the civil rights movement and here we are today with an (compared to those times) at least on paper equal country where people should have the same rights. So they're not neutral remembrances of the war and those on each side who lost their lives but they're political symbols placed there at big times of racial unrest to influence laws and divide people.

Sure the civil war was more complex than just the issue of slavery but that's the main issue that was the clear divider between the sides and what it's remembered today for. It's political background and the surrounding culture of racial division  is also what attracts white supremacists to it today.

You really think it's the left that's to blame for racial unrest when there's a president that's being openly racist and hence follows a wave of racist attacks?

 

Yes, it's the left that's to blame. It's the self identified Communists. They are to blame. And Barack Hussein Obama as well, and the "mainstream" radical leftist media. Seriously, not joking. 

[kevinjohnsonmbe]

41 minutes ago, Aicchalmers said:

You really think it's the left that's to blame for racial unrest

On the basis that it is the "Left" rather than the "Right" generally, that tends to favour unfettered immigration, and that racial tension is born from the tensions between different races trying to live in the same space, and that the "Left" are generally more inclined to support this insane concept of "multiculturalism", I'd say it is absolutely the fault of the "Left" for promoting and inflicting an insane concept upon the unwilling.  Others may differ, but they would clearly be radical, Lefty, sandal wearing friends of Jeremy.....    

[matelot]

9 minutes ago, Aicchalmers said:

Do you not see the difference between monuments directly erected as a political symbol to an era and just those that come from it?

But it seems almost irrelevant as it's become a rallying point for the most 'extreme' of white supremacists, and the hate that's being openly displayed by them seems to be much more of the issue than a statue.

Again, comparison between those with openly genocidal aims and those who oppose them isn't an equal comparison.

Great that's something to have an actual political debate on, I'd probably disagree but there's our freedoms!

 

The black community riot all the time. They even riot when the police legitimately kill a black criminal... Tbh,  I don't really care if they find a statue of a general that died over a century ago offensive... If they weren't rioting over a statue they would be rioting over something else.

 

You never answered my question... If America is so racist why do so many africans want to move to America? There are hardly any white people in places like Sierra Leone, would african Americans not prefer to live there? 

[Vespasian]

3 minutes ago, Aicchalmers said:

You really think that white supremacists are 'oppressed' and need protection? You think the majority of the violence in this situation has been in order to 'suppress' them? Who murdered people on the streets and was congratulated for it?

 

Yes I do believe white supremacists need protection, look at the mob that turned up on their march/protest..

 

The fella driving the car, can't say I've given that incident much thought, he's obviously a madman or caught up in the moment...  if you want me to condemn the fella for running people over well I will, and why wouldn't I...

 

But my main points are to do with freedom of expression, and the right to speak your mind no matter your belief..  

 

And people who think its a good idea to go to a march to protest the march and go with the intention of using violence, then they're as bad if not worse than the protesters...  No, they are worse..

[Aicchalmers]

2 minutes ago, matelot said:

You never answered my question... If America is so racist why do so many africans want to move to America? There are hardly any white people in places like Sierra Leone, would african Americans not prefer to live there? 

Apologies;

I'd say that despite it's big issues around race America and other western countries have overall made huge progress in being inclusive nations where people have opportunities to work and live. Still huge inequalities and problems but.. Doesn't mean there's not going to be a small minority of idiots like this who hold repugnant views that if allowed to fester and grow would turn into genocidal ideologies and that oppose any progress that's been made.

Actually have a friend (white) who's just been living and working in Sierra Leone and had a great time!

And I guess the clue is in the name - they're americans just the same as anyone else so why would they not want to live in their own country?

[matelot]

11 minutes ago, Aicchalmers said:

 

And I guess the clue is in the name - they're americans just the same as anyone else so why would they not want to live in their own country?

Because they hate white people and complain constantly about white people's history and culture? If I was a white American with relatives that died in the Civil War I'd be furious at statues being torn down.

 

We all accept that slavery was an awful thing. However no one alive was involved in slavery in 1800's America. Maybe white people should stop being made to feel guilty about things that we had no personal involvement in? 

 

You don't see brits or Americans rioting because we had a war with Germany 70 years ago...

[Haironyourchest]

The Civil War wasn't over slavery anyway, it kicked off over the southern confederacy trying to secede from the union. The slavery angle got involved later, as I understand it.

[Mick Dempsey]

 

 

https://www.civilwar.org/learn/primary-sources/declaration-causes-seceding-states

6 hours ago, Haironyourchest said:

The Civil War wasn't over slavery anyway, it kicked off over the southern confederacy trying to secede from the union. The slavery angle got involved later, as I understand it.

You understand it wrong.

 

Read the above link which shows the reasons the individual states wanted to secede. Slavery is the first thing mentioned in most of them.

 

(thanks to Kevin Bingham)

 

[Vespasian]

1 hour ago, Mick Dempsey said:

 

 

https://www.civilwar.org/learn/primary-sources/declaration-causes-seceding-states

You understand it wrong.

 

Read the above link which shows the reasons the individual states wanted to secede. Slavery is the first thing mentioned in most of them.

 

(thanks to Kevin Bingham)

 

 

I doubt anyone on the Confederate side went to war over slavery. They fought over states rights...