£38K is the current UK average wage, are business owners working for less??

[Johny Walker]

The tree work industry basically pays itsself a low wage. Work is massively unpriced.

 

The market needs to raise prices, thus raising wages for both business owners and employees.

 

thats the collages chucking premmadonnas out 10 to the dozern :thumbdown:

[oldwoodcutter]

It used to pay much better than it does now, but there are far more people at it now.

 

You're not wrong there Dave, I've been out this afternoon and priced 3 different domestic jobs up, I priced normally and could see each potential customer rock back on their heels. I tried to grab something from nothing by asking if they'd had any other quotes (I guessed they had) 1 said I was a third higher than the highest so far, the second showed me a duplicate book type quotation half the price I gave him, and the third proffered a business card with a figure on the back that wouldn't buy a hand basket of tescos basics.

[Johny Walker]

You're not wrong there Dave, I've been out this afternoon and priced 3 different domestic jobs up, I priced normally and could see each potential customer rock back on their heels. I tried to grab something from nothing by asking if they'd had any other quotes (I guessed they had) 1 said I was a third higher than the highest so far, the second showed me a duplicate book type quotation half the price I gave him, and the third proffered a business card with a figure on the back that wouldn't buy a hand basket of tescos basics.

 

it apperas to have become very cut throat, im so glad i aint still got 5, wages to find @ the end off every mth ,

[Steve Bullman]

this threads about average working wages, what it should really be focussng on is the business model of firms in the uk. This is where the problem clearly is. More education is needed regarding running a business. This is more important IMO than any CS course in running a chainsaw, any diploma in aboriculture. This industry is formed from the ground up by passionate arborists who love their job and the lifestyle that goes with it, but thats not sustainable. The sooner people realise that the better.

[chrism3513]

this threads about average working wages, what it should really be focussng on is the business model of firms in the uk. This is where the problem clearly is. More education is needed regarding running a business. This is more important IMO than any CS course in running a chainsaw, any diploma in aboriculture. This industry is formed from the ground up by passionate arborists who love their job and the lifestyle that goes with it, but thats not sustainable. The sooner people realise that the better.

 

boss man has hit the nail on the head

 

its perhaps marginly better here in australia, but there are still plenty of mobs running around thinking they are making good money but their ancient knackered trucks & chippers suggest to me that they are not making enough to reninvest into the business.

 

One guy I contract too tells clients he will beat any quote "its better to have work than not have work" problem is that means he doesnt have enogh on jobs so then he pushes his workers to get an unrealistic amount done in a day so as to pass a profit. basically just means his workers always get the short end of the stick, often getting sent to underquoted jobs

Edited June 7, 2016 by chrism3513

[jamesd]

this threads about average working wages, what it should really be focussng on is the business model of firms in the uk. This is where the problem clearly is. More education is needed regarding running a business. This is more important IMO than any CS course in running a chainsaw, any diploma in aboriculture. This industry is formed from the ground up by passionate arborists who love their job and the lifestyle that goes with it, but thats not sustainable. The sooner people realise that the better.

 

Just been catching up with this thread and i think this comment is spot on. When i was at college (yes i'm one of those..) one of biggest issues with the course was the lack of useful information given about how to actually run a successful business. We even had a business course but in all honesty it was not related to arb in anyway and not helpful at all.

I'm not saying everyone should or may not want to have their own business. But if they do it should be a sustainable way of living.

[richy_B]

You need to look outside of arb if you want to develop skills relating to running a business in my opinion. A HND or degree in business management would give a base understanding, MBA would be a good option. Big undertaking obviously but very transferable skills.

 

Even just going to workshops or seminars (HMRC do quite a few).

 

The federation of small business is a good resource too.

Edited June 10, 2016 by richy_B

[kevinjohnsonmbe]

You're not wrong there Dave, I've been out this afternoon and priced 3 different domestic jobs up, I priced normally and could see each potential customer rock back on their heels. I tried to grab something from nothing by asking if they'd had any other quotes (I guessed they had) 1 said I was a third higher than the highest so far, the second showed me a duplicate book type quotation half the price I gave him, and the third proffered a business card with a figure on the back that wouldn't buy a hand basket of tescos basics.

 

You're on the mark there!

 

I'd suggest, the problem is not just the back of a fag packet quoters though, the other perhaps equal part of the problem is the quality of the customer.

 

If their prime focus is price - regardless of professionalism, quality, reliability, adherence to industry and legal requirements etc, etc ,etc, then the Chainsaw Charlie, Saturday morning firewood brigade will always fair better.

 

I just quoted for dismantle, lower and removal of a stem failure Oak - partially entangled in adjacent trees and elevated above a steep embankment. I thought I'd probably under-priced it slightly but was (at that time) interested in establishing a relationship. No surprises, my price was, to quote the customer "significantly higher" that the alternative.

 

During the site visit to price that tree, I also highlighted several others that presented real and present danger of failure. They've already had 2 whole tree failures and 1 major limb failure this year in high target areas.

 

It's a corporate outfit so I'd hoped they would be receptive to a management plan rather than reactive clearances and chancing to luck that they don't suffer an injury or damage.

 

Fell on deaf ears with the lame excuse that they hadn't budgeted for any survey work.

 

Here's my morale dilemma - there is a significant and notable avenue of mature trees, predominantly Oak - some of which require sympathetic management to ameliorate risks they may present to high target areas. There is the potential for these trees to become notable or veteran if managed appropriately but I suspect the owner will engage local zipperhead to smash some lumps out or simply fell to remove potential risk.

 

Dilemma:

 

(1) forget it, move on, don't be surprised when they are gone.

(2) pass details of trees and threat of loss (based upon known aversion to responsible management) to LA with request for TPO consideration.

 

Just to clarify, it's not sour grapes about not getting that job. I pitched my price, someone else pitched theirs, so be it (they must be at cost or below.)

 

What would trouble me is the loss of potential veteran trees because the landowner doesn't appreciate the asset they are custodian for. At least if there was a TPO, there would be some element of oversight in future management.

 

Perhaps, if "we" as an industry proposed more TPO's it would make it harder for less proficient / conscientious operators to deliver the budget works??

[nailer]

The owner of a decent tree firm should be making well over £50k. Most likely a skilled climber who's set the whole thing up and invested a lot of time and money into the business. If you're struggling to find enough customers willing to pay good prices the answer lies in great marketing. Unfortunately you won't learn how to do that from any trade association, government body or college. Trying to compete for work on price is never gonna work out well in tree work. The only way is to win work whilst being more expensive than others. I haven't cracked how to do that for commercial contracts and I wouldn't want them anyway, but for private work it is certainly possible. You need some expense and work doing first to attract the right customers but the ongoing benefits are awesome. Obviously a better income, but more than that you get to work for people who appreciate good tree work, you get to hire and work with all the best staff, and you can work at a brisk but not stupid pace. And hardly ever leave site after 4pm.

The right marketing is the only way to get that.

[Ty Korrigan]

this threads about average working wages, what it should really be focussng on is the business model of firms in the uk. This is where the problem clearly is. More education is needed regarding running a business. This is more important IMO than any CS course in running a chainsaw, any diploma in aboriculture. This industry is formed from the ground up by passionate arborists who love their job and the lifestyle that goes with it, but thats not sustainable. The sooner people realise that the better.

 

To our advantage, being in business here is hard.

You pay social charges whether you work or not and these amount to 2-3grand a year minimum.

Paperwork too.

Also the weird business models you must work under put most off from running a business themselves and they see being employed as the easy option.

Few leave college and just start up.

You must attend a 5 day business course at the Chamber of Commerce or Trades before being allowed to run your own business here even at the lowest level.

I believe there to be a shortage of college trained Arbs.

Just getting onto a course here requires a stiff selection programme.

No pay as you go tickets here.

Ty

Edited June 10, 2016 by Ty Korrigan