Kiln dried Firewood - The future ?

[briquette_seller]

Time for a clear out arboriculturist, your box is full

[skyhuck]

I think there is a place for kiln drying.

 

My boiler runs the kiln and heats my home. I used to heat our home with very large outdoor boiler, burning unseasoned wood, straight from jobs.

 

There are many advantages to my new system, because its also running the kiln its in all year, this means we can also heat our hot water all year, this was not the case with the old boiler, it was too big to only do hot water, so we had the immersion heater on from april to october. The fact that it always lit also means that we can simply switch the heating on if we wish and its on a timer through the winter, so its much more like gas central heating.

 

I burn manly Pop, Willow and soft wood on the boiler, know these lower grade fire woods can be mixed in with the better hardwood, but like most arb firms we get a disproportionate quantity of these lower grade timbers, so we would struggle to get shut of it all unless it was sold very cheap. I also burn all the horrible lumps any arb firm doing firewood inevitably end up with.

 

As for carbon, timber landfilled or simply left to rot in the corner of the yard will release just as much carbon as if burned, but with much use being made of the energy. Over the years I've let a great deal of timber rot in this way or bonfired it. I recon my carbon foot print it better now than then.

 

The RHI is very welcome and has pushed me into getting into fire wood which is something I've being putting off for years.

 

The kiln does make the whole process faster and more controllable IMO.

 

As for kiln dried being poorer quality, I really do think this is nonsense. A great deal of firewood is burned unseasoned, I think kilning will general drive up the standard of firewood in general.

 

I also know I will want to continue using my kiln after the RHI had ended.

Edited July 12, 2015 by skyhuck

[openspaceman]

Lots of things wrong with the system IMO. Getting paid for using wood to dry more wood rather than sun and wind is only one. We get an OTT amount for roof mounted PV and biomass RHI, neighbouring prime agricultural farmland full of PV has to be the worst though.

Bottom line is that if OTT or inappropiate payments are offered then its obviously good business sense to take them. I'm all in favour of renewables but I believe some payments have been pitched too high and some for the wrong things.

 

It seems daft and may have been unforeseen (I always assumed there would be enough south facing roofs to accommodate all the necessary PV), but interventions, like grants and subsidies and even taxes, in the marketplace always cause anomalies AND/OR black-markets. I never really got into macro economics before the college authorities decided they were better off with me gone but it was interesting. The reason we have interventions is because the free market works within current rules and does not need to account for externalities, like pollution, until they are recognised and legislated for.

 

In the current instance the EU have decreed we shall have a certain amount of renewable energy, those countries that do not reach the amount will be penalised with a fine. HMG have decided to incentivise renewable with these carrots available for early adopters, to lead the rest of the interested parties. With PV this resulted in the suppliers of panels making a killing, the early adopters got the high feed in tariff but paid dearly for their installations. Once HMG had seen they woulkd reach their target and avoid the fine they cut the subsidy and the installation price halved. The cost of paying these early adopters for 25 years will be less than the EU fine which would have resulted as UK was missing the target.

 

Probably something similar will happen with RHI.

 

The other point that needs considering is that just because a kiln uses some fuel it doesn't mean that a contribution from air drying doesn't exist. After all with traditional timber drying one did not put green oak into the kiln, the kiln only took those final few percent of moisture out.

 

If I could make a case for kiln drying it would be along the lines of needing to maintain continuity of operation, to pay workers year round and amortise capital costs over a larger throughput and to take pressure off cashflow. In a !just-in-time" economy you need to minimise stock that you have to invest in a long time before sales.

 

The other case would be if the cost of the kiln was lessened by it providing waste heat while working that justified only operating it for a few months running up to xmas.

 

In the niche I worked, small broadleaved estate woodlands, there was no tradition of employed woodmen, they were the farm labourers and gamekeepers doing seasonal work in the woods. So it wasn't unusual to fell stuff after christmas while dormant and then leave it to do other work on the estate. The woodland area was confined to awkward spots, the gills and hangers, which couldn't be readily worked, so extraction waited till the farm horses (before my time) were available after the hay and corn harvests and the ground was hard.

 

I could fit in with this as i had cheap tractors which I could lay up most of the winter when extraction conditions were bad.

 

Now move on 30 years and people had invested in forwarders and harvesters which need year round work to justify the cost...

[openspaceman]

You'r on a Firewood Forum here O space - may need to tone the science down a touch!

 

Sorry missed your post whilst typing my last, I'll get me coat

[the village idiot]

I think there is a place for kiln drying.

 

My boiler runs the kiln and heats my home. I used to heat our home with very large outdoor boiler, burning unseasoned wood, straight from jobs.

 

There are many advantages to my new system, because its also running the kiln its in all year, this means we can also heat our hot water all year, this was not the case with the old boiler, it was too big to only do hot water, so we had the immersion heater on from april to october. The fact that it always lit also means that we can simply switch the heating on if we wish and its on a timer through the winter, so its much more like gas central heating.

 

I burn manly Pop, Willow and soft wood on the boiler, know these lower grade fire woods can be mixed in with the better hardwood, but like most arb firms we get a disproportionate quantity of these lower grade timbers, so we would struggle to get shut of it all unless it was sold very cheap. I also burn all the horrible lumps any arb firm doing firewood inevitably end up with.

 

As for carbon, timber landfilled or simply left to rot in the corner of the yard will release just as much carbon as if burned, but with much use being made of the energy. Over the years I've let a great deal of timber rot in this way or bonfired it. I recon my carbon foot print it better now than then.

 

The RHI is very welcome and has pushed me into getting into fire wood which is something I've being putting off for years.

 

The kiln does make the whole process faster and more controllable IMO.

 

As for kiln dried being poorer quality, I really do think this is nonsense. A great deal of firewood is burned unseasoned, I think kilning will general drive up the standard of firewood in general.

 

I also know I will want to continue using my kiln after the RHI had ended.

 

Excellent post Skyhuck.

[R5log]

Yes it depends who you are but I'm guessing not many people have the money or space to store 3000 tonnes for over a year before you can sell or use it.

If you wanted to sell 1000 cube a winter and air dry it to 20% which would take pretty much a year you would need 2000 cube stored up. 1000 dry for the winter your going into and another 1000 drying ready for the year after.

What do you do with your waste? We get around a cubic metre of chip/processor bits/offcuts/crap bits from 8/10 cubic metres of cut firewood so you would have around 100 cubic metres of waste a year if you sold 1000 cube. Why not bother with the RHI and just get a system that burns all that? There was another thread yesterday saying people can't get rid of it.

 

 

Did u just say "why not bother with the rhi and get a system that burns all that"

[the village idiot]

It seems daft and may have been unforeseen (I always assumed there would be enough south facing roofs to accommodate all the necessary PV), but interventions, like grants and subsidies and even taxes, in the marketplace always cause anomalies AND/OR black-markets. I never really got into macro economics before the college authorities decided they were better off with me gone but it was interesting. The reason we have interventions is because the free market works within current rules and does not need to account for externalities, like pollution, until they are recognised and legislated for.

 

In the current instance the EU have decreed we shall have a certain amount of renewable energy, those countries that do not reach the amount will be penalised with a fine. HMG have decided to incentivise renewable with these carrots available for early adopters, to lead the rest of the interested parties. With PV this resulted in the suppliers of panels making a killing, the early adopters got the high feed in tariff but paid dearly for their installations. Once HMG had seen they woulkd reach their target and avoid the fine they cut the subsidy and the installation price halved. The cost of paying these early adopters for 25 years will be less than the EU fine which would have resulted as UK was missing the target.

 

Probably something similar will happen with RHI.

 

The other point that needs considering is that just because a kiln uses some fuel it doesn't mean that a contribution from air drying doesn't exist. After all with traditional timber drying one did not put green oak into the kiln, the kiln only took those final few percent of moisture out.

 

If I could make a case for kiln drying it would be along the lines of needing to maintain continuity of operation, to pay workers year round and amortise capital costs over a larger throughput and to take pressure off cashflow. In a !just-in-time" economy you need to minimise stock that you have to invest in a long time before sales.

 

The other case would be if the cost of the kiln was lessened by it providing waste heat while working that justified only operating it for a few months running up to xmas.

 

In the niche I worked, small broadleaved estate woodlands, there was no tradition of employed woodmen, they were the farm labourers and gamekeepers doing seasonal work in the woods. So it wasn't unusual to fell stuff after christmas while dormant and then leave it to do other work on the estate. The woodland area was confined to awkward spots, the gills and hangers, which couldn't be readily worked, so extraction waited till the farm horses (before my time) were available after the hay and corn harvests and the ground was hard.

 

I could fit in with this as i had cheap tractors which I could lay up most of the winter when extraction conditions were bad.

 

Now move on 30 years and people had invested in forwarders and harvesters which need year round work to justify the cost...

 

Ooh, and another excellent post!

 

This thread has been really interesting!

[Alycidon]

To be honest though we will all be buying in kiln dried hardwood from Europe in 10/15 years time as there will be no hardwood left in the UK to process and Stove shops/manufactures have been telling people for years that softwood is rubbish and you should only burn hardwood.

As a stove retailer i tell it like it is. Wilsons had a sheet on their web site a few months ago giving the calorific values of different UK timbers. 6 of the top 7 are softwood. I issued that with all new stoves in an attempt to shift softwood, alas most bought hardwood. The public are by and large coming from an open fire or no fire background, hard is recommended on open fires as it does not spit, but in stoves the doors are shut and soft burns hotter but for a shorter period.

 

But I do accept your point that there are some very poor stove shops out there, ( I visit my competitors incognito every six months or so) some of whom have no idea what so ever.

 

My own sales are very much hardwood, I only sell soft if I am out of hard. I have been thinking of doing a mixed bag but am unsure how this would sell.

 

A

Edited July 12, 2015 by Alycidon

[the village idiot]

But I do accept your point that there are some very poor stove shops out there, ( I visit my competitors incognito every six months or so) some of whom have no idea what so ever.

 

Good work Alycidon! Your disguise is flawless.

 

[arboriculturist]

Time for a clear out arboriculturist, your box is full

 

Sorted thanks:thumbup1: