Why you should join FISA.....

[Tom D]

FISA are likely to be changing the mandatory NPTC refresher updates from 5 down to 3 years, they are also likely to be introducing unit specific refresher training, the first of these being windblow. So the basic refresher won't cover you for windblow, you'll have to do a separate refresher. It seems it may only be a matter of time before each unit will require its own refresher...

 

The HSE, who make and enforce the rules, are guided by industry bodies as to the level of training and certification required. There is no way that they can be experts on everything from industrial sewing machines to cement mixers, so they have to rely entirely on advice from each relevant industry. Our industry is represented by FISA, and although FISA doesn't really cover (or it appears care) about arboriculture the results of its efforts do affect us.

 

Having run a successful arb business for a good while now, I have nothing against health and safety, who would have? however it is beginning to feel like the H&S industry is not necessarily working in our best interests. Its hard to argue against something that is supposed to be protecting us, but there have to be limits on the burdens that this places on the industry.

 

So who are FISA? The working groups who debate and ultimately report to the HSE are made up of FISA members, these groups are more heavily weighted towards the training industry and away from the contractors, especially the small contractors. Its easy to see why, small contractors don't have the time or the money to spend debating and discussing these issues when they need to be working to keep the cash rolling in. This leaves the larger organisations together with the training industry making all the decisions. This is bad for us, inevitably decisions are made in the interests of those represented on the working groups. More training is good for the training industry, and the other big stakeholders at FISA like UPM Tilhill and Scottish Woodlands, also stand to gain from increased regulation. They do this by using the extra regulation as a means to squeeze out the smaller contractors, and its hard to argue the case for the smaller outfit, after all he's less safe isn't he? I have met numerous contractors who no longer work for the Forestry Commission or the other big players as they simply can't comply with the ever increasing regulation.

 

So how does this affect you? Well unless you want to work for one of the stakeholders like UPM or the Forestry Commission then its not a problem right?

 

Well no. Because if the HSE decide that you need refresher training, thanks to advice from FISA, and you or one of your employees has an accident then you may be in trouble. The HSE could prosecute because you hadn't bothered with the refresher training, then you are relying on the good sense of a judge to see that your 20 years experience working daily on the tools is worth more than a £150 1 day course. The judge may agree with you, some of them are very sensible so I hear, but then again he may not..

 

We all like to think that it won't happen to us, but accidents do happen, they are posted up on here on a fairly regular basis, so it really could be you...

 

We currently do everything required of us by FISA and have won numerous contracts for the Forestry Commission, we will continue to do what is required to keep winning this work. The problem comes when we try and return to the normal everyday work. If we are forced to continue to comply with an ever increasing amount of training and re-training the costs of this have to be borne by our customers. Customers like the commission won't mind this since everyone who works for them will be in the same position, but for the rest of the market, especially the domestic market, this will be an issue.

 

Here's some maths: We will turn over around £400k this year, thats £1500 per working day. So lets say that we loose 2 days on training courses, that costs us £3000 in lost revenue, thats £11 extra that we have to charge on each working day to get back the £3000.

Lets say we have t refresh every nptc unit, and maybe we loose 5 days a year, thats £7500 lost, thats nearly £30 extra on each working day.

And of course thats before you pay for the training itself, so for me to put all my staff through chainsaw and windblown refreshers costs £1800, another £7 a day extra that we need to charge. Before long we will have priced ourselves out of the domestic market just like the FISA stakeholders have already done.

 

We are in danger of creating a two tier system which I doubt will make us any safer. What FISA should be doing is trying to carry everyone forwards, rather than trying to teach some to run whilst others are yet to walk. The way they should do this is by encouraging the rest of the market to take an interest in H&S. This means the domestic and commercial sectors who currently have little or no interest in FISA or NPTC. I have done a lot of site clearance work for many prestigious companies like Balfour Beatie and Barratt Homes, none of whom had any interest in FISA. What they did want was CSCS, which has no relation to arb or forestry work.. FISA should be educating the buyers not the contractors.

 

 

So why don't we all join FISA and try and change this organisation from the inside before we regret it. You get to stick their logo on your van too!:thumb up:

[Gary Prentice]

You've got a very valid argument there, the cost of training and refreshers is getting more and more burdensome, particularly on the small contractor.

[Robert_S]

A sticker !! where do i sign up :lol:

 

well written post by the way.

[Wood wasp]

The Forestry Contractors Association are arguing the case with FISA too, there are regular updates in their newsletter. Depending on your area of interest it may be worth joining them so a coordinated approach.

 

http://www.fcauk.com

[Spruce Pirate]

I agree with you 100% Tom, but there are a few important and sinister points I think you're missing:

 

1 - Refresher is already unit specific. Basic refresher only covers small trees (CS 31 as was) and seems to only be suitable for scrub cutting and felling to waste. There are separate refreshers for harvesting sites and windblown trees (CS 32&33 and CS 34/35 as was respectively) - as far as I'm aware if you do refresher on the harvesting site you automatically refresh the small trees, but windblow is separate - and it wouldn't surprise me if someone decided that refresher in all three units is required at some stage.

 

2 - By joining you do get a sticker (), but that's about all you get. As a member you don't get the chance to put your, very valid in this case, opinions on refresher training to the board. They will still continue to railroad on ahead regardless of your opinion, because they will not ask for it and there is no voting system within the membership on which way the organisation should go.

 

In my opinion FISA exists solely to protect forest managers from litigation and potential charges of corporate manslaughter. Since its inception it has done very little to actually improve safety in the forest industry, it has done a lot of blustering and a lot of posturing, but if you look at what it has actually achieved it is very little.

 

I think there is a long way to go before we are in a position to bring down the system from the inside, but I'm delighted to see people like yourself thinking this way. We need something to happen to stop the industry becoming lead by clip-board toting imbeciles with no real world knowledge carrying out hazard assessments rather than risk assessments.

 

Already a member of FISA by the way, and the sticker is the best bit!

[arbwork]

would it be relevant to ask to be represented by say The Arboricultural Association for the Arb side of HSE, I remember they have a working relationship, in the past with climbing / mewps and more, from press re. FISA / FCA I think I would have more faith in the AA

[TimberCutterDartmoor]

FISA's days are numbered so hold on to your horses!

 

Corrupt organisation in serious financial and organisational trouble.

 

FCA best to contact for balanced and accurate comments.

[paulcumberland]

Interesting FISA are only using existing trainers/testers form other testing bodies, who can then be check tested to their standards at a cost to the trainer so that they can then just tap into another examining board, is this good or is it just another group trying to get power, My feelings are if the examiner/trainer is good he possible has enough work so would not need to add FISA to his portfolio of examining boards, so me think they are only getting the poorer or new trainer/testers or those that are looking into getting into testing for the first time. It is similar to being able to P test in the electrical household work, the examiner can be less qualified then the examined. Personal I can rewire a 3 phase industrial building but cannot put a plug in my own Flat, but can rewire the shop below the flat plugs and all. Lets hope the HSE looks to the existing trainers/testers and looks more at getting those without any training trained before doing any tree work. And away from testing from stretch tree work with many years of experience offering them grandfather rights so the well established workers can pass on their experiences, and that are only spot tested every five years on site, Yes I think the retests should be on site, not in a test area, we do not work in test area's.

[scotspine1]

I thought the Arb Association are already involved with FISA? they were supposed to be responsible for the upkeep of the arb related AFAG guidance and FISA would be doing the AFAG guidance on forestry side. Probably both would be covering guidance that crossed into forestry and arb.

 

This would mean someone like Paul AA Teccie or Simon Richmond acting on behalf of the arb industry, surely they would keep tabs on excessive amounts of training and refresher courses being demanded by FISA knowing full well that the arb industry has loads of small specialist companies that can't afford to be financially overburdened with repeated training costs?

[timbernut]

Really good thread! Tom D and Spruce Pirate you have pretty much summed up all my feelings/suspicions about FISA. I joined about a year ago (as a small business membership is pennies!) and yes you do get a car sticker but also a strip of wee stickers to put on your pencil case etc😄. But that's about it apart from being badgered about FISA courses (mostly management training) or bulletins about forestry ( and arb ) incidents, accidents, some of which appear to have happened years ago. The new FISA leaflets are identical to the old AFAG ones just different header and everything seems to be led by the big boys, don't like it😠