Opinions wanted please - Where are all the arborists?

[Mick Dempsey]

16 hours ago, Jackalope said:

 

Is that kind of 'harness time' actually healthy or useful in the long term? 

 

Do operatives who start with big firms that lack accountability and quality control suddenly find themselves being 'vocally re-educated' when they go to work for wee independent firms who value their reputation and customer satisfaction?

 

I'm off on a tangent, sorry/not sorry.

The problem for newbies is they want to get time in the tree to learn to do the bigger stuff, but employers/bosses only want them to do the bigger stuff IF they’re experienced enough to rig big over targets etc. (Their reputation, their insurance) the old catch 22

 

Its easy to say ‘employers should take the time to teach newbies to do this stuff’ but you can spend a lot of time and effort teaching someone to get to commercial climber standard to have them leave very soon after for Canada, Australia or more money down the road.

I can see the attraction for many firms of just getting a good freelance climber in on the bigger jobs.

 

I remember Bob at Aspen arb on here saying it takes three years from a zero position before he will send a lad out in his truck on his insurance to do a real tree job without him or a senior being present.

Edited March 31, 2023 by Mick Dempsey

[MattyF]

Another thing is maybe recruitment firms are part of the problem.. I can remember being constantly contacted by a guy, from possibly arb jobs I think it was who wanted to give me full time or part time jobs  …he also wanted say 20% of my wage for getting me work😆 I really honestly thought how does this happen until I met folk who had gone down this route with him and where not happy at all for various reasons … he spent some time trying to convince me I needed to do this with the argument that  going self employed takes years to build a customer base up, I wasn’t looking back after 6 months after politely refusing .  

[IronMike]

If it’s any consolation, all the foresters appear to have vanished too!

 

Im trying to take someone on currently, full time, PAYE, with all the perks. I’ve offered the job to 2 of my regular sub contract workers but they’d rather stay as they are. I’m reluctant to look elsewhere as the standard of most just isn’t up to scratch. 
 

I am offering 26-28k. I’m looking for someone with basic felling tickets, and the rest we can sort out. They’ll be doing a mixture of cutting work, and machine operating. Based in North Yorkshire, no long travel times to site as all out work is local. No cutting trees in back gardens etc, predominantly thinnings work on local estates working with knowledgeable folks, away from the public.

 

Is my wage offer unrealistic? When did 26-28k become a sh*te wage?! 

[handcutter]

1 hour ago, IronMike said:

If it’s any consolation, all the foresters appear to have vanished too!

 

Im trying to take someone on currently, full time, PAYE, with all the perks. I’ve offered the job to 2 of my regular sub contract workers but they’d rather stay as they are. I’m reluctant to look elsewhere as the standard of most just isn’t up to scratch. 
 

I am offering 26-28k. I’m looking for someone with basic felling tickets, and the rest we can sort out. They’ll be doing a mixture of cutting work, and machine operating. Based in North Yorkshire, no long travel times to site as all out work is local. No cutting trees in back gardens etc, predominantly thinnings work on local estates working with knowledgeable folks, away from the public.

 

Is my wage offer unrealistic? When did 26-28k become a sh*te wage?! 

Problem is that isn't a shite wage at all, lots seem to be jumping ship in forestry for a few quid extra a day!! and the ones who are employed don't know how good they have got it. They hear or see the high rates offered to self employed but dont factor in the running costs!!

[doobin]

1 hour ago, IronMike said:

If it’s any consolation, all the foresters appear to have vanished too!

 

Im trying to take someone on currently, full time, PAYE, with all the perks. I’ve offered the job to 2 of my regular sub contract workers but they’d rather stay as they are. I’m reluctant to look elsewhere as the standard of most just isn’t up to scratch. 
 

I am offering 26-28k. I’m looking for someone with basic felling tickets, and the rest we can sort out. They’ll be doing a mixture of cutting work, and machine operating. Based in North Yorkshire, no long travel times to site as all out work is local. No cutting trees in back gardens etc, predominantly thinnings work on local estates working with knowledgeable folks, away from the public.

 

Is my wage offer unrealistic? When did 26-28k become a sh*te wage?! 

My missus gets 28k a year working from home in a marketing job, she started with no experience a couple of years ago.

 

The problem UK wide isn't wages. It's that the cost of living, primarily that of putting a roof over your head, has at least trebled since the 90s.

So to answer your question, £26-28k became a shite wage when house prices were allowed by successive governments to soar past 3x average annual earnings.

Edited March 31, 2023 by doobin

[Jackalope]

1 hour ago, IronMike said:

Is my wage offer unrealistic? When did 26-28k become a sh*te wage?! 

 

It sounds a fair offer tbh, 6-7 years ago I'd have relocated for that. 

 

However, 26k divided by 260 working days (including paid holiday) means a day rate of £100 before tax. 

 

Average saw running costs are circa £25/day. 

 

On a day rate of £180* less £25, cutters still clear £150 before tax.

Obviously on piece rate jobs there is scope to take much more £££ home.

 

Ok there's no pension or NI contributions and the holidays are unpaid but guys with a mortgage to service will probably rather keep the roof over their heads now and worry about retiring when we're all 103.

 

*The top cutters won't even get out of bed for less than £200.

[AHPP]

2 hours ago, doobin said:

 

So to answer your question, £26-28k became a shite wage when house prices were allowed by successive governments to soar past 3x average annual earnings.

That’s pretty much exactly what I was going to say; does a two bed semi within ten miles of the base of operations cost £78-84k?

The government didn’t allow house prices to rise btw. They caused them to. 

Edited March 31, 2023 by AHPP

[Steven P]

When I was in school the teachers pushed us all to university (looks good for the school if large percentages go to further education), so that's where I went. If I had been a fireman for example, straight from school, or the police, I'd be retired now with a pension, but that's another thing. I was on holiday last week (UK caravan park), and on changeover day at 10:00 a bus load if immigrants (and it was a bus load) walked through the site with their cleaning trolleys - still earning the same minimum wage that a local would earn with the added hassles for the holiday park to check all their employment status and bus them in - locals wouldn't need that (by the way, the place was spotless, cleaners did well). The press was reporting last year that farms cannot get labourers (If I remember rightly, once daffodil picking with bonus on a piece rate paid better than a lawyer). 

 

Point is 'the system' will push as many kids to further education as they can, whether it is the best thing or not, and the manual jobs are looked down on by many with a degree.

 

Once you get into the work system making a career jump is harder. Finances - when I did the sums, and a £45k student debt (for England), 5 years of 'economic inactivity' while you do exams and a degree then start at the bottom of the ladder, compared to a 5 year apprenticeship or training, no debt and earning, you kind of even out in your mid to late 30s who is better off - university graduates tend to get ahead a bit later in life... if the apprenticeship route stays as an employee - go it alone and they will be financially better off till nearer retirement.

 

Same in all industries.

[eggsarascal]

On 31/03/2023 at 09:49, IronMike said:

If it’s any consolation, all the foresters appear to have vanished too!

 

Im trying to take someone on currently, full time, PAYE, with all the perks. I’ve offered the job to 2 of my regular sub contract workers but they’d rather stay as they are. I’m reluctant to look elsewhere as the standard of most just isn’t up to scratch. 
 

I am offering 26-28k. I’m looking for someone with basic felling tickets, and the rest we can sort out. They’ll be doing a mixture of cutting work, and machine operating. Based in North Yorkshire, no long travel times to site as all out work is local. No cutting trees in back gardens etc, predominantly thinnings work on local estates working with knowledgeable folks, away from the public.

 

Is my wage offer unrealistic? When did 26-28k become a sh*te wage?! 

I’m not sure I understand this, you are not wanting to look elsewhere because the standard isn’t up scratch, yet you’ll take someone with basic tickets and sort the rest? About the money, with rent, council tax, utilities, a single person would be stretched on that money around here. East Cheshire.

[Tommy_B]

Basic tickets means they can be molded into what he'll be looking for long term I would guess.