Opinions wanted please - Where are all the arborists?

[manco]

Q: where are all the arborists
A: in trees

youre welcome

[KateH]

23 hours ago, Mr. Squirrel said:

 

 

1: I totally agree with regards to tree removal to an extent. You could pay the flashest outfit going to come in and helicopter trees out, or pay the bloke at the end of the road to hack it to bits off his ladder with a bow saw. If the end result is the tree is no longer there, then option one has just costed you £10k extra for no reason. I guess the difference is in how these things are undertaken. You can cut a lot of costs in running a business by not having insurance, carrying on using those 10 year old slings, never lolering kit, running crap old saws etc etc. Is that better value? Maybe, but when that rotten old sling breaks, a lump of wood smashes through a conservatory and the contractors best response is 'sorry' maybe not. The 'end result' argument goes out the window when you're thinking about pruning too.

 

2: There's potentially no lack of understanding in what a number of tree guys do, because they probably don't understand either. I'm not branding everyone but me as incompetent, there are a lot of knowledgable and skilled people out there. But there's also an awful lot of hacks who just don't care... Heck I have to drive past some of the worst pruning I've ever seen on a mature beech almost daily. you'll know as well as anyone Mick that good arboriculture is rarely black and white and doing a professional job often requires a bit of informing. Trees have too much value to just keep your head down and do exactly what the client wants all the time.

 

Really don't think that gypsy camps would be the issue in industry regulation. They're a convenient scapegoat but I think your average small company would be just as difficult to get further compliancy from, if not more so as it's relatively easy to look pretty professional. I'd be all in favour of greater regulation if implemented in the correct manner. Making the chainsaw in a tree ticket more robust for instance, and making rigging a mandatory part of that would be beneficial in my mind. Who can honestly operate without doing any rigging? So what's the point of the stand alone ticket? 

 

Honestly I think the industry has been a bit saturated for a while. Rates in the UK have pretty much stagnated for years and are way below those in many EU countries. Perhaps a skill shortage would help push wages up a bit? 

 

 

Interesting points @Mr. Squirrel . Lots to think about there. I find it hard to square the circle of a saturated market from our angle when it's so difficult to find people for roles. Maybe, as you said before, that's our problrm alone but it doesn't feel that way. It's a complicated situation. Kate

[Jackalope]

My 25p worth is that Arb & Forestry attract people with a sense of adventure. Many, though not all, of the guys I've worked with have adventurous hobbies (rock climbing, Motocross, hill running, mountain biking, snow sports). 

 

I worked PAYE for almost 3 years and it was the least adventurous employment I've ever had. I felt I was stifled by the 'hoops' and even after taking work expenses, paid holiday, NI contributions into account I was still 20% worse off.

 

There was little flexibility.

For example, in Scotland the snow is very sporadic, if I look on a Sunday night and see that conditions at Glencoe are good, being self-employed allows me to postpone my Tuesday job and get a quiet midweek slide. As an employee I had to submit a leave request in advance and with no guarantee it would be approved. 

 

That is quite a niche example, my point is that the industry self selects people who thrive on the flexibility, adventure, and to an extent, the uncertainty of being self-employed. 

 

There is no risk-reward relationship whilst working PAYE; it could even be described as boring.

Edited March 30, 2023 by Jackalope
Grammar

[Mark Bolam]

It’s pretty simple.

The companies you recruit for offer minimum wage and the churn of staff is ridiculous.

 

I’ve met more ex-arbs than working ones.

 

The biggest employers in arb are the fat cat companies underbidding big contracts to get an ‘in’ with the GM stuff etc.

Crap work for crap wages.

Anyone decent leaves, often to ‘go it alone’.

 

Jackalope makes a good point about lifestyle as well.

 

The industry is saturated.

 

Just not with people who want to do a £4m contract for £3m.

 

Glendale were recently on here offering £10-illegal after next month per hour for qualified arbs.

 

It’s not rocket science.

[Stubby]

9 minutes ago, Mark Bolam said:

It’s pretty simple.

The companies you recruit for offer minimum wage and the churn of staff is ridiculous.

 

I’ve met more ex-arbs than working ones.

 

The biggest employers in arb are the fat cat companies underbidding big contracts to get an ‘in’ with the GM stuff etc.

Crap work for crap wages.

Anyone decent leaves, often to ‘go it alone’.

 

Jackalope makes a good point about lifestyle as well.

 

The industry is saturated.

 

Just not with people who want to do a £4m contract for £3m.

 

Glendale were recently on here offering £10-illegal after next month per hour for qualified arbs.

 

It’s not rocket science.

I don't know about it too much ( as I am a retired old forestry git ) but there seems to me to be " tree surgeon " rucks around here like confetti after a wedding .  There are the usual , well established guys but shed loads of new ones . 

Edited March 30, 2023 by Stubby

[Rich Rule]

53 minutes ago, Mark Bolam said:

It’s pretty simple.

The companies you recruit for offer minimum wage and the churn of staff is ridiculous.

 

I’ve met more ex-arbs than working ones.

 

The biggest employers in arb are the fat cat companies underbidding big contracts to get an ‘in’ with the GM stuff etc.

Crap work for crap wages.

Anyone decent leaves, often to ‘go it alone’.

 

Jackalope makes a good point about lifestyle as well.

 

The industry is saturated.

 

Just not with people who want to do a £4m contract for £3m.

 

Glendale were recently on here offering £10-illegal after next month per hour for qualified arbs.

 

It’s not rocket science.

Over worked and underpaid.

 

Couldn’t have said it better myself. 
 

No need to knock your nuts out in a daily basis to make some company shareholder a bob or two.

 

Been there done that.  There is better money to be made working for oneself (whatever the capacity).

 

Is there any wonder that recruitment companies are struggling to fill positions?

 

Maybe if a decent wage was offered or even a decent price was tendered at the bidding stage then it might be different.

 

Until then, the likes of Glendale etc will still offer shit money with a promise of bonus.  Everyone else knows it is a load of bollocks and only freshly qualified people (naive) apply.  Till they realise they are doing shit work and getting paid minimum.  
 

They leave and the cycle starts again.

[Mick Dempsey]

5 minutes ago, Rich Rule said:

Over worked and underpaid.

 

Couldn’t have said it better myself. 
 

No need to knock your nuts out in a daily basis to make some company shareholder a bob or two.

 

Been there done that.  There is better money to be made working for oneself (whatever the capacity).

 

Is there any wonder that recruitment companies are struggling to fill positions?

 

Maybe if a decent wage was offered or even a decent price was tendered at the bidding stage then it might be different.

 

Until then, the likes of Glendale etc will still offer shit money with a promise of bonus.  Everyone else knows it is a load of bollocks and only freshly qualified people (naive) apply.  Till they realise they are doing shit work and getting paid minimum.  
 

They leave and the cycle starts again.

Well, naïve perhaps, but it’s a chance to get some hours in the harness or on the saws under you belt for the first year of your tree working life. 
 

After that you move on to a better  (privately owned) firm on your journey towards self employment. 

[Rich Rule]

Totally agree.  Harness time for sure.

 

Yet the likes of the companies mentioned usually expect production levels of an experienced climber from someone out of college.

 

I used to live in the borough of Lewisham and Glendale had the parks and street trees contract.  A lot of the work was shocking.

[Jackalope]

20 minutes ago, Rich Rule said:

Totally agree.  Harness time for sure.

 

Yet the likes of the companies mentioned usually expect production levels of an experienced climber from someone out of college.

 

I used to live in the borough of Lewisham and Glendale had the parks and street trees contract.  A lot of the work was shocking.

 

Is that kind of 'harness time' actually healthy or useful in the long term? 

 

Do operatives who start with big firms that lack accountability and quality control suddenly find themselves being 'vocally re-educated' when they go to work for wee independent firms who value their reputation and customer satisfaction?

 

I'm off on a tangent, sorry/not sorry.

[Ty Korrigan]

5 years ago I was considering moving back to the UK (Hants,Sussex) from France but a deciding factor was that even with funds for a truck and chipper etc, I couldn't find anywhere reasonable to rent with garage and driveway or a safe yard such was the pressure on property and accomodation.