2 rope climbing are we sticking to the rules

[Pete Mctree]

I don’t agree on the apprenticeship to qualify, however a single week and you can climb is wrong. Fair enough get a learners ticket and then go out into the world to learn your trade and certify when your at a good standard.  Just  think about it - a qualified climber with zero day’s experience is expected to carry out an arial rescue in a stressful and new environment. It would not end well I think.

The whole industry needs to step back and re-look at training and certification.
The problem is that people want it cheap and quick- neither produce well trained, competent and efficient staff.

We don’t necessarily need more, however we need far higher standards if we are to cut down on injuries and accidents.

More paperwork won’t help, trade associations neither, just good quality training on the relevant courses and on the job. It’s not rocket science 

[Mick Dempsey]

The problem (if there is one) is employers sending guys out to do work they are not yet capable of, because of pressure of work.

 

I remember getting sent out to reduce large trees over traffic and properties straight out of a ten weeker. 
You didn’t want to say it was too much for you so you cracked on ending in damage because you didn’t know how to do it.

 

 

 

[MattyF]

That seems unfair.
If someone wants to invest in their own future and fund a training course in order to get a skill why shouldn’t they? If they give up in a year who loses? Only them and their time/money.
 
You cannot get any sort of work without tickets and now you’re saying you cannot get tickets without work!
 
I was 31 when I did my 10 weeker, do you think I had the time or inclination to do an apprenticeship?
 

No the employer loses as they take on another bullshitting waste of space... I'll agree to disagree with you mick as I think your situation is entirely different.

[Joe Newton]

I think perhaps the IRATA training system which requires you to have a certain number of hours supervised by a competent person before moving on to the next level could be workable

[5thelement]

52 minutes ago, Pete Mctree said:

I don’t agree on the apprenticeship to qualify, however a single week and you can climb is wrong. Fair enough get a learners ticket and then go out into the world to learn your trade and certify when your at a good standard.  Just  think about it - a qualified climber with zero day’s experience is expected to carry out an arial rescue in a stressful and new environment. It would not end well I think.

The whole industry needs to step back and re-look at training and certification.
The problem is that people want it cheap and quick- neither produce well trained, competent and efficient staff.

We don’t necessarily need more, however we need far higher standards if we are to cut down on injuries and accidents.

More paperwork won’t help, trade associations neither, just good quality training on the relevant courses and on the job. It’s not rocket science 

The Forestry Contracting Association proposed something similar to this to FISA/HSE last year.
The proposal was that prospective candidates who wanted to work in Forestry could gain employment and be mentored by the experienced employees, the two tree safe working distance would be relaxed to facilitate this.

 A log book containing the number of hours a candidate had covered on different tasks, felling, snedding, winching, hung up trees etc would be completed by the person doing the mentoring. 
When completed the candidate would do their NPTC assessment.

You would then have a hand cutter with possibly months on the saw before earning their tickets. 
I mentioned it in a post on here a while back and it was rubbished, so you can’t win really.

[Mick Dempsey]

11 minutes ago, MattyF said:

No the employer loses as they take on another bullshitting waste of space... I'll agree to disagree with you mick as I think your situation is entirely different.

No need to think we’re arguing, just discussing.

 

I can assess someone’s ability within a morning’s watching and working with them.

 

A bullshit merchant will be found out in minutes. No one has wasted anyone’s time.

 

 

[5thelement]

44 minutes ago, Mick Dempsey said:

The problem (if there is one) is employers sending guys out to do work they are not yet capable of, because of pressure of work.

 

I remember getting sent out to reduce large trees over traffic and properties straight out of a ten weeker. 
You didn’t want to say it was too much for you so you cracked on ending in damage because you didn’t know how to do it.

 

 

 

This is exactly the problem. Employers demanding far too much from people who have been climbing for two minutes. When I finished my RFS I was still green as F**k and my employer recognised this straight away.
He started me on the easier stuff and partnered me up with an experienced climber on the more technical stuff.

I got lucky I suppose.

[Pete Mctree]

12 minutes ago, 5thelement said:

The Forestry Contracting Association proposed something similar to this to FISA/HSE last year.
The proposal was that prospective candidates who wanted to work in Forestry could gain employment and be mentored by the experienced employees, the two tree safe working distance would be relaxed to facilitate this.

 A log book containing the number of hours a candidate had covered on different tasks, felling, snedding, winching, hung up trees etc would be completed by the person doing the mentoring. 
When completed the candidate would do their NPTC assessment.

You would then have a hand cutter with possibly months on the saw before earning their tickets. 
I mentioned it in a post on here a while back and it was rubbished, so you can’t win really.

This kind of blueprint is the way forward imho

13 minutes ago, Joe Newton said:

I think perhaps the IRATA training system which requires you to have a certain number of hours supervised by a competent person before moving on to the next level could be workable

Yes 👍😎

[Joe Newton]

4 hours ago, Pete Mctree said:

This kind of blueprint is the way forward imho

Yes 👍😎

It's a pretty harsh "sink or swim" scenario as it is. I was thrown in at the deep end like many of us, and luckily I managed to swim. There might've been a couple of fence panels/gutters that took the brunt of my inexperience.

 

Plenty of people achieve a low level of competence and plateau there, some of who will blag their way around.

 

I think if you can manage the first 3-5 years of climbing without doing yourself a mischief you fall into the lower risk category. 

[AA Teccie (Paul)]

Both the Forestry industry sector, and IRATA (I think / presume) are structured differently to the arb industry are they not, in that arb has many more small/micro businesses, and a large self-employed fraternity, where it would be much more difficult to implement log books and sign offs ect. effectively (if you have a direct supervisor, and manager, as with larger businesses this is easier to achieve.)

 

Previously, there was a proposal to introduce something like the Forestry proposed system called 'R2' (Register of Tree Work Operatives) but industry in general, other than some larger employers (who have implemented a version of it internally in some cases) didn't 'buy-in'...maybe a lack of awareness / information was the problem   but it's currently shelved.