Energy costs

[agg221]

There is a lot of money backing the SMR programme at the moment. This is definitely seen as part of the solution - also because it will create an exportable design which will go some way to addressing the balance of trade deficit which is rising post-Brexit.

 

There is some hope for fusion. It is still a long way away in the scale of our lifetimes, but not in the context of longer-term stability. That's the case on a global basis - less likely to benefit the UK now unfortunately (the UK hosted JET and has played a major role in its successor ITER, but that ended with Brexit due to withdrawal from the Euratom treaty). UKAEA is having a lot of money pumped into it as a competitor to ITER, but that is the UK vs. the World and it isn't anywhere near the same scale.

 

The UK does not have any reliable sources of renewable energy. Wind and solar are unpredictable at best so a storage solution would have to be accepted alongside the generation costs, which is not likely to leave them financially viable. The demand which would be placed on the electricity network if transport goes electric as planned would be unsustainable. There is also a current government exercise underway considering the future of heat. The question being asked is whether in future you will heat your home with electricity or with hydrogen through the gas distribution network. The decision is due to be made in 2025. If the answer is electricity then again, the question will be where is that additional power coming from?

 

Insulation is a good solution in some cases but it leaves many people excluded. It's good because it reduces consumption, meaning there is less impact from increased price. Working from home I get a steady stream of cold calls offering to improve my insulation - 'thatched' and 'grade 2 listed' and they are suddenly not interested and hang up. It's no good coming up with a solution that upgrades most buildings and leaves some out, unless you are prepared to either subsidise energy costs for anyone in a building which cannot be upgraded, cover the costs of demolishing and rebuilding all such buildings (including loss of heritage in many listed buildings and conservation areas) or allow fuel poverty to start killing off pensioners again, as it used to before the introduction of the winter fuel allowance.

 

The UK is set for a period of substantial inflation. This is the quickest and cheapest way to pay for COVID - much like the way your mortgage stops hurting so much once you are some years in because your salary has gone up and the debt hasn't, even if that is just an inflationary rise, the same is true for the COVID debt. The problem becomes if you allow energy costs to rise faster than inflation then they become unaffordable. Small and steady moves over the long term is the best way to implement change, taking a ten to twenty year view, but what government is going to do that when they are looking to be re-elected in no more than five, and then looking to move on personally to lucrative non-exec director roles?

 

The technology is possible, and should be viable, but I fear that politics will delay or crash it - that is what is happening right now.

 

Alec

Edited February 6, 2022 by agg221

[Baldbloke]

Today the Scottish SNP have announced a consultation over a Bill to stop the renting out or sale of any property that fails to perform over energy rating over C.

Effectively this will hold me (and others with period property) to ransom by ensuring our windows/skylights are double or triple glazed (mine already are) and that all the internal walls are either ripped out and replaced with additional insulation, or clad over the outside stonework. Otherwise our properties could be unsaleable, and at the very least will require additional expenditure to make good.

Obviously this makes a mockery of retaining the appearance of a Georgian house, or retaining any semblance of its plasterwork, cornicing and other period detail.

When an official came around a few years ago to assess our property for some insulation needs, he classed our Georgian house as F rated, so a long way away from the proposed C rating needed.

No Acknowledgement was made for the £25,000 I’d spent on the biomass heating, nor the £91,000 I’d invested in the wind turbine to power and heat our F rated home. Yet these two installations actually not only heat and power our house but additionally export probably 50% to the Grid too.

 

My point is that I’m happy with my property. I can afford to heat and power it without relying too much on outside suppliers or fossil fuels, yet by being ultra green in my investments I’m still likely to need to have to waste product for renovations and history to satisfy future legislation by the f……. SNP.

 

 

 

[Treetom15]

The problem is that we’re really up against it in the U.K.-we have a massive population for the size of the country, and we are also by nature very greedy with our use of energy/consumables/luxury items (it’s insane that within a few hours you can order almost anything to be delivered to your doorstep!) not that this is anyone’s fault persay, it’s just how the world works….

Myself and my family are in the process of building a small house-high insulation levels, very low energy consumption, solar PV to run an ASHP etc etc. What’s shocked me, is that the overall costs (whilst high) are not that much higher than building a “bog standard” house, so I cannot understand how we have such low standards for building in the U.K. compared to Scandinavian countries? Most contractors I spoke to said not to bother with solar & ASHP and go down the gas/oil boiler route-most new builds never have solar. 
Fracking is poisonous, a short term solution with long term repercussions. I think peoples habits & perceptions of energy usage need to be changed for there to be any sort of sustainable solution. 

[eggsarascal]

7 minutes ago, Treetom15 said:

The problem is that we’re really up against it in the U.K.-we have a massive population for the size of the country, and we are also by nature very greedy with our use of energy/consumables/luxury items (it’s insane that within a few hours you can order almost anything to be delivered to your doorstep!) not that this is anyone’s fault persay, it’s just how the world works….

Myself and my family are in the process of building a small house-high insulation levels, very low energy consumption, solar PV to run an ASHP etc etc. What’s shocked me, is that the overall costs (whilst high) are not that much higher than building a “bog standard” house, so I cannot understand how we have such low standards for building in the U.K. compared to Scandinavian countries? Most contractors I spoke to said not to bother with solar & ASHP and go down the gas/oil boiler route-most new builds never have solar. 
Fracking is poisonous, a short term solution with long term repercussions. I think peoples habits & perceptions of energy usage need to be changed for there to be any sort of sustainable solution. 

How many kWh do you use?

[Treetom15]

3 minutes ago, eggsarascal said:

How many kWh do you use?

I’ll have a much more accurate answer when it’s finished haha! It’s predicted to be at Passivhaus low energy standard (not full passivhaus) which I think it’s something like 22kwh? That’s just a number that’s stuck in my head though I could well be wrong-I think full passivhaus is 15, and low energy passivhaus is 30kwh

Edited February 6, 2022 by Treetom15

[Woodworks]

19 minutes ago, Treetom15 said:

What’s shocked me, is that the overall costs (whilst high) are not that much higher than building a “bog standard” house, so I cannot understand how we have such low standards for building in the U.K. compared to Scandinavian countries? Most contractors I spoke to said not to bother with solar & ASHP and go down the gas/oil boiler route-most new builds never have solar. 
 

Yes, many will choose a 20k+ kitchen (that will be ripped out in a few years due to fashion) over extra insulation and an efficient heating system. As you say we are greedy nation.

 

Bet you wont be using as much as 22kWh a day in a small Passive House. Good on you for going the extra mile now as it protects you in the long run

 

 

[Sutton]

Government invests in its people by keeping the infrastructure up to do date or at least modernised.

Tories believe in hands off laissez faire free market economics. So all are infrastructures are privatised.

So @eggsarascal pointed out the futility in Just-In-Time gas storage. Others have seen the EDF delays with nuclear. Something's got to give.

 

Given oil is nearly $100 per barrell and frackers break even at $50, this is only going to go one way - given that protesting and such are illegal now.

 

We need a government who will regulate and isn't shy of holding corporations to account.

There is hope but it won't be quick.

Look at Germany. They have to have coalitions. Perhaps we brits will end up the same in a few decades?

Most of us havn't forgotten the Cameron-Clegg travesty though.

[scraggs]

Have as much solar and wind power as you like but if it is in the hands of big companies like a lot of solar farms are you will still be shafted.
The big one at our farm is owned by an investment company now I believe, but has changed hands a couple of times.
Houses need to be more energy efficient and we need to use less.
Planning to go off grid has been great for us and a learning curve as we have had to look at ways to be much more energy efficient.
Nuclear is just creating problems for our children imo.
Hydrogen does look like a way to go, There was some talk about using over generated power from solar and wind being used to produce Hydrogen during off peak times, although not overly efficient it is kind of a way of storing power, electricity is a problem because it's very expensive to store.

[agg221]

1 hour ago, Baldbloke said:

Today the Scottish SNP have announced a consultation over a Bill to stop the renting out or sale of any property that fails to perform over energy rating over C.

Effectively this will hold me (and others with period property) to ransom by ensuring our windows/skylights are double or triple glazed (mine already are) and that all the internal walls are either ripped out and replaced with additional insulation, or clad over the outside stonework. Otherwise our properties could be unsaleable, and at the very least will require additional expenditure to make good.

Obviously this makes a mockery of retaining the appearance of a Georgian house, or retaining any semblance of its plasterwork, cornicing and other period detail.

When an official came around a few years ago to assess our property for some insulation needs, he classed our Georgian house as F rated, so a long way away from the proposed C rating needed.

No Acknowledgement was made for the £25,000 I’d spent on the biomass heating, nor the £91,000 I’d invested in the wind turbine to power and heat our F rated home. Yet these two installations actually not only heat and power our house but additionally export probably 50% to the Grid too.

 

My point is that I’m happy with my property. I can afford to heat and power it without relying too much on outside suppliers or fossil fuels, yet by being ultra green in my investments I’m still likely to need to have to waste product for renovations and history to satisfy future legislation by the f……. SNP.

I'm not familiar with the system in Scotland, but in England that would be catastrophic.

 

We would not actually be allowed to make the changes necessary to uprate the house and, like you, many of the energy efficiency measures we have made do not count. We have early glass in some of the windows, so would not be allowed to remove it. Our walls are 4" thick lath and plaster which we would not be allowed to remove. Cladding over it with a modern system would reduce breathability and it would rot, for which we would be held accountable. Installing heavy thermal curtains, underfloor heating and thermal plaster do not count because they are not in the assessor's checklist. We do not have solar panels because the artificially inflated costs are designed to become affordable once you factor in the grants, but we do not qualify for the grants because our property does not meet the necessary energy efficiency levels, which we can't do because of the above. Catch 22.

 

If you make listed buildings or buildings in conservation areas legally unsaleable then the residents have to live there until they die, and then they are left to fall apart. It's worse with listed as technically the owner still has to pay to repair it.

 

You might think things would be joined up in this regard but they really aren't. When I built our extension it had to comply with both building control and listed buildings. These were totally different functions and although the relevant officers sat in the same council building they didn't talk. They both put forward their stipulations and I was obliged to find a way to reconcile them. If new legislation makes that impossible it will fall on the homeowner to deal with that problem. The only way I can see that being resolved is if the regulations alienate enough voters simultaneously that it costs them an election.

Alec

[Ben Pinnick]

Funny isn't it how we could possibly fix everyone's insulation, and give everyone solar/wind power where they can, but we could order £12bn of useless PPE easy enough.