Calling all Camp Gyro users

[skyhuck]

6 hours ago, Paddy1000111 said:

Considering that this whole thread was about bringing the community together to give us something we could all use that benefitted  everyone I really don't get why it had to become handbags at dawn because I repeated a story I was told as an example of being screwed over and no-one is immune to HSE 

Thing is that's not what you did on this thread and others.

 

You put forward your point of view, be it correct or not. If people don't agree you start telling them they are fools and will find themselves without insurance cover and face life destroying prosecution. You then go on to tell a little story that fully supports your opinion, but never have a link to this supposedly real life example.

[Mike Hill]

But in the aircraft industry.. 

[Paddy1000111]

1 hour ago, Mike Hill said:

But in the aircraft industry.. 

But the law. 

 

Sorry you two but the law has changed. If either of you want to give me a proof of exemption for this industry or a clause that says "if you have X amount of years experience then you're exempt" then I will bow down to your experience. 

 

Otherwise my point stands, climbing single rope is against the health and safety at work act which means it's illegal and you can be open to being charged for it if something serious happens. 

 

Instead of saying how long you've been doing it for, or how little time I have been doing it for, tell me how you're exempt from the law. 

 

I've been saying from the start though, if you want to break the law then it's down to you, but you are breaking the law 🤷🏼‍♂️

[skyhuck]

4 minutes ago, Paddy1000111 said:

But the law. 

 

Sorry you two but the law has changed. If either of you want to give me a proof of exemption for this industry or a clause that says "if you have X amount of years experience then you're exempt" then I will bow down to your experience. 

 

Otherwise my point stands, climbing single rope is against the health and safety at work act which means it's illegal and you can be open to being charged for it if something serious happens. 

 

Instead of saying how long you've been doing it for, or how little time I have been doing it for, tell me how you're exempt from the law. 

 

I've been saying from the start though, if you want to break the law then it's down to you, but you are breaking the law 🤷🏼‍♂️

Its not as simple as that, go back and read Paul's (AA Tecky) post.

 

I have not said its OK to climb with only one attachment. I have said and stand by the fact that I don't believe your story about the farmer. Will the HSE prosecute a sole trader, Co director etc? Yes of cause they may. Will they treat a farmer, putting his own life at risk, breaking the rules and cocking up the same as someone who sends another person to risk their life, without adequate measures to protect them, the same? No, I don't believe they will.

 

Do you not think it was likely to get up people noses that you come on here, with limited experience of the industry and start preaching to seasoned pro's, talking down to them like they are fools? I thought you would have learned your lesson on the insurance thread. You were told you were wrong, but went on and on. And when proved wrong just made excuses.

 

There are many, many ways of doing any job. Different people are happy doing things different ways. Why not just concentrate on the way YOU want to do things and leave others to do things their way.

 

[Paddy1000111]

9 minutes ago, skyhuck said:

Will they treat a farmer, putting his own life at risk, breaking the rules and cocking up the same as someone who sends another person to risk their life, without adequate measures to protect them, the same? No, I don't believe they will.

Thing is, they can. If they do or not is down to the situation and how your hse rep treats the case and may even come down to the way you treat him. Bit like the police, if you get pulled over for speeding and you graciously apologise and kiss boots then you stand a good chance of being let off with a stern warning. Start pulling out the "I pay your salary, you work for me" bs and you can find yourself in the back of the car on the way to the nick. Everyone has different experiences. That story stuck with me only because it was an extreme response and maybe a case too far and definitely not the norm but it showed to me that no-one is immune and there is no exemption to the rule. By no means is it the standard and it doesn't in any way prove that it will happen to everyone but it is a possibility.

 

It's a bit like Rich's story, the kit not being lolered wasn't the cause of the accident. Maybe the hse rep thought that possible life changing injuries were enough to teach the guy a lesson without him getting done over for paperwork especially if the kit, whilst not being lolered, was in good condition. I'm not denying that hse don't have compassion. 

 

16 minutes ago, skyhuck said:

Do you not think it was likely to get up people noses that you come on here, with limited experience of the industry and start preaching to seasoned pro's, talking down to them like they are fools? I thought you would have learned your lesson on the insurance thread. You were told you were wrong, but went on and on. And when proved wrong just made excuses.

Yea, it probably does but you are arguing with me about the law. Something black and white. This whole thread was started to make something good for everyone and then it turned into the usual "I don't use two ropes, you don't need to, why bother" thread. If you don't want to follow the law then fine, some of us HAVE to be it through being an employee or like me, prefer to just crack on and try to stick to two ropes because why should I develop a bad habit? 

I still wasn't "wrong" on that insurance forum, my point was to check you insurance and make sure you're covered. A point that was supported by the insurance companies. My other point was you can be sued for gross negligence as a freelancer and it's why if you deal with anything that can cost money you get professional indemnity insurance, something that I had for a number of years when I was working as a freelancer because I was dealing with stuff that was high value. But lets not start that again.

I don't talk down to people like fools, or at least I don't intend to. If it comes across that way then I apologise. I would much rather have a discussion about something than have an argument but instead of concrete proof, i.e something someone could take to court that would get them off scot free which is the only proof that really matters the usual response is "I have more experience of this industry than you" which is true, but insurance and the law doesn't change between industries. Notice when I have argued about something, I've not been telling people "Don't bother checking you're insured" or "you don't need insurance" or "You don't need to follow the hse law" or "HSE won't charge someone who's a sole employee of a ltd company" or other advice that can lead to putting someone at financial risk. My arguments have been "Check your insurance", "If you need insurance get it" "Follow the HSE laws" but somehow I am giving out bad advice.

My time in aviation does matter because the insurance, employment and health and safety laws are identical to this industry, the rules don't change. The only difference is when I was filling out paperwork, signing documents and working, if I did something outside of the rules I wasn't putting myself and a groundie at risk but I was putting myself, the hundreds of people I worked with and every single person that flew on that plane at risk and I could be charged with manslaughter for up to 3 years after I carried out that job. I guess being in an industry like that puts things into perspective. 

 

Considering my experience however, I sure as hell wouldn't start telling someone who has been in this industry for years how to do a disassembly or try telling them how to do their job. 

 

32 minutes ago, skyhuck said:

There are many, many ways of doing any job. Different people are happy doing things different ways. Why not just concentrate on the way YOU want to do things and leave others to do things their way.

 

I agree, there are. I've not told anyone here that you don't know what you're doing or what you're talking about. My only point is 2 rope is the law (and when I say 2 rope I mean having two anchors at any point not that you need two ropes holding you up plus lanyards etc). It's up to you if you follow it or not but I originally created this thread not saying "Stop working single rope" and "Experienced climbers don't know what they're doing" but "If you have to follow two rope then lets create a new tool that works". This didn't need to become the usual arb talk, experience/I know more than you grudge match. This thread was constructive until that happened, and for what? 

[Joe Newton]

36 minutes ago, skyhuck said:

 

 

There are many, many ways of doing any job. Different people are happy doing things different ways. Why not just concentrate on the way YOU want to do things and leave others to do things their way.

 

Because that would be the behaviour of a secure, rational person. Not that of a serial Internet troll. 

[Paddy1000111]

29 minutes ago, Joe Newton said:

Because that would be the behaviour of a secure, rational person. Not that of a serial Internet troll. 

By all means prove me wrong that two rope isn't the law and you can't be charged for beaching HSE laws.

 

or

 

Quote me saying that you have no experience and don't know what you're talking about. 

 

I have said you SHOULD climb two rope as it's the law and the new standards of work. I've also said it's down to you if you follow the law or not, it's your choice BUT you COULD be charged. I'm not trying to troll anyone with false information or suggesting bad working practice. 

Edited February 3, 2021 by Paddy1000111

[MattyF]

The Arb talk oracles are still out in force on this thread i see.

[Khriss]

11 hours ago, Mike Hill said:

Great

 

12 Arbtalkers agree with me that you are a bullshitter,vrs 2 that like your last post that confirms the former theory.

 

Yet still you compound your density by comment .

 

You were,indeed,the T.A.

And?  Trial by internet, dont make me laugh 😆  K

[skyhuck]

2 hours ago, MattyF said:

The Arb talk oracles are still out in force on this thread i see.

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