Twin Rope Hazard (Self Rescue)

[Bolt]

31 minutes ago, scotspine1 said:

 

So are you using two full length climbing lines? or a full length rope and a 'shortish rope'? if your using a shortish rope this contravenes the new industry code of practice as both ropes have to reach the ground. 

 

 

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2 ropes of suitable length (to comply with cherrypicked guidance).... but I also use whiptails and karabiners as well.

 

Just because I could climb on just a couple of ropes and a harness, doesn’t meant I do.  
 

 

Edited December 20, 2019 by Bolt

[Bolt]

7 minutes ago, scotspine1 said:

 

So your groundie is constantly tending, managing and feeding the slack of your two trailing ends into your ropebags while you move around and up and down the tree? if so he's constantly moving into the drop zone to carry this out. 

 

How is that safe? 

 

 

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‘Course he is not.

 

He will be out of the way  somewhere looking at his phone.

[Bolt]

51 minutes ago, scotspine1 said:

 

.....this contravenes the new industry code of practice....

 

 

but surely the ‘new icop’ is not an icop yet as it is just a draft document that is out for consultation till the 17 Jan?

Sorry if I’m confused.... as you can tell, I haven’t really engaged properly with this saga.

 

?

 

 

Edited December 20, 2019 by Bolt

[scotspine1]

2 hours ago, jmac said:

Even worse if he has cut one arm so bad he cant use it! Imagine trying to use two friction hitches with 1 hand ??. 

 

I agree. Especially if you need to bring them together but the two ropes are coming in from wide opposing angles. 

 

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[Pete Mctree]

If people have real objections to working on two ropes then they need to respond to the AA consultation document- they have given us the opertunity to object & we ALL need to do it.

[scotspine1]

41 minutes ago, Pete Mctree said:

If people have real objections to working on two ropes then they need to respond to the AA consultation document- they have given us the opertunity to object & we ALL need to do it.

 

While I agree Pete, people need to be made aware of the potential danger with a twin line system in a self rescue situation, which is why I started the thread. 

 

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[Konstantly]

3 hours ago, scotspine1 said:

Anyone setting out to work in the tree using a twin line system needs to be aware of a potentially dangerous situation which could arise from using twin lines. 

 

Example -

 

A climber accidently cuts himself high up in the tree. He still has the ability to self rescue and descend out of the tree to seek urgent emergency first aid. 

 

As the bleeding climber descends - the trailing ends of his twin lines become entangled beneath him midway through the descent severely restricting his progress to the ground, trapping him at this point. 

 

In this scenario the climber could bleed out. 

 

 

 

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See your points.

 

I  am sure the HSE also do and when the new fully revised documentation is made available to us all it will have plenty of scope for us all as professional tecnisions of wah to have the caveat to bin off this method when seen as and justification is made from the operative to do so.

 

The many posts I have seen of two anchor points on other forums have frankly been comical in the regards of anchor point failure. 

 

I for one will use this technique as an when I see fit.  As I have to good effect when I climbed on DdRT. I have little (but some) use for it on SRWP and again not employed it much.

 

Said it before.. HSE your barking (yapping) up the wrong trees....

 

 

 

[TIMON]

This whole thing needs to go back to the drawing board.
YOU CANT JUST ‘BOLT ON’ IRATA TECHNIQUES TO ARB CLIMBING ... IT ISN’T THE SAME.
There are too many factors to take into account. This clearly isn’t the answer.
Sure let’s make climbing safer, no one disagrees with that.
Let’s find an up date industry specific solution that really works.

[scotspine1]

1 hour ago, TIMON said:

YOU CANT JUST ‘BOLT ON’ IRATA TECHNIQUES TO ARB CLIMBING ... IT ISN’T THE SAME.

 

IRATA/Industrial Rope Access has spent decades perfecting and refining working at heights with rope in some incredibly harsh environments. But they didn't stop there. They developed a training system that is integral to everything and everyone in that field. 

 

Two ropes as a stand-alone mandate does almost nothing to reduce accidents. Add the IRATA systematic training schedule that has ‘levels’ that must be adhered to by all participating members, THEN you have a recipe for high levels of safety. 

The tree industry has also spent decades perfecting climbing systems for our specific and very different work environment. The systems and tools that are in use today for tree work are hugely innovative and incredibly safe. What we don't have is control over how those systems and tools are used, literally, none at all. Yes we have NPTC and LANTRA to guide things, but that is not even close to the same thing as IRATA. 

 

In the UK today you can become a fully qualified tree surgeon/climbing arborist after passing a few weeks long course in tree surgery, even if you add a mandatory twin rope system to this course it is in no way comparable to the steady, ‘levels’ incremental training combined with experience regime of IRATA/Industrial Rope Access. 

 

Most accidents in our industry today occur due to deviation from safety protocols not be because we weren’t climbing on twin lines. The vast majority of tree climbers today tie in twice when cutting. If you choose not to tie in twice with your work positioning lanyard/flip line when cutting you’re deviating from a well established safety protocol. 

Getting back to the IRATA comparison - there is nothing to stop a tree climber from switching tools and systems, without oversight, and to self proclaim proficiency. And proficient they may be, to a point, but in the field of working at height, time at a ‘level of proficiency’ is what is needed if safety is the goal. Only with work hours accrued will the multitude of variables become apparent. Only with time, and consistently doing it right, will muscle memory protect you when fatigued and experience protect you from a cut or a fall. 

 

Climbing on two lines at all times won’t suddenly and arbitrarily make you, ‘safer’. 

Given the vast differences in our industry from IRATA how much safer will arborists be with this enforced two rope mandate?

 

The self rescue entangled twin ropes scenario suggests there’s a very real problem at the outset with the promotion and introduction of a mandatory twin rope climbing system in treework. 

 

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[Mick Dempsey]

1 hour ago, TIMON said:

Sure let’s make climbing safer, no one disagrees with that.
Let’s find an up date industry specific solution that really works.
 

Any suggestions?