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Twin Rope Hazard (Self Rescue)


scotspine1
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59 minutes ago, Mick Dempsey said:

Any suggestions?

id say somthing that bridges the gap between just passing your nptc,s and becoming a safe working climber.

an hours logged system, continued assesment, or retests.

within a good company mentoring from more experienced climbers works well.

i think the hse have got the order of things the wrong way round, much better to work out a new safer system then try and implement it rather than saying the law has changed you must use two ropes but its up the the individual climber to cook up their own system.

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IRATA/Industrial Rope Access has spent decades perfecting and refining working at heights with rope in some incredibly harsh environments. But they didn't stop there. They developed a training system that is integral to everything and everyone in that field. 
 
Two ropes as a stand-alone mandate does almost nothing to reduce accidents. Add the IRATA systematic training schedule that has ‘levels’ that must be adhered to by all participating members, THEN you have a recipe for high levels of safety. 

The tree industry has also spent decades perfecting climbing systems for our specific and very different work environment. The systems and tools that are in use today for tree work are hugely innovative and incredibly safe. What we don't have is control over how those systems and tools are used, literally, none at all. Yes we have NPTC and LANTRA to guide things, but that is not even close to the same thing as IRATA. 
 
In the UK today you can become a fully qualified tree surgeon/climbing arborist after passing a few weeks long course in tree surgery, even if you add a mandatory twin rope system to this course it is in no way comparable to the steady, ‘levels’ incremental training combined with experience regime of IRATA/Industrial Rope Access. 
 
Most accidents in our industry today occur due to deviation from safety protocols not be because we weren’t climbing on twin lines. The vast majority of tree climbers today tie in twice when cutting. If you choose not to tie in twice with your work positioning lanyard/flip line when cutting you’re deviating from a well established safety protocol. 

Getting back to the IRATA comparison - there is nothing to stop a tree climber from switching tools and systems, without oversight, and to self proclaim proficiency. And proficient they may be, to a point, but in the field of working at height, time at a ‘level of proficiency’ is what is needed if safety is the goal. Only with work hours accrued will the multitude of variables become apparent. Only with time, and consistently doing it right, will muscle memory protect you when fatigued and experience protect you from a cut or a fall. 
 
Climbing on two lines at all times won’t suddenly and arbitrarily make you, ‘safer’. 

Given the vast differences in our industry from IRATA how much safer will arborists be with this enforced two rope mandate?
 
The self rescue entangled twin ropes scenario suggests there’s a very real problem at the outset with the promotion and introduction of a mandatory twin rope climbing system in treework. 
 

 


[emoji122][emoji122][emoji122][emoji119] This.

I too am jealous of the IRATA system. The training they have to go through and levels of competency they have to demonstrate to progress their careers AND wage is uncomparable to our industry. You can pass your CS39 and CS41 within 2 weeks and be sent up a thumping big tree with an 88 on your belt. Utterly ridiculous. I’m not against the twin lines tbh, but we NEED a better training system than we have. Rope access guys are seen as professionals in their own right and charge for that privilege. I wish we could be the same.[emoji17]
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6 hours ago, TIMON said:

This whole thing needs to go back to the drawing board.
YOU CANT JUST ‘BOLT ON’ IRATA TECHNIQUES TO ARB CLIMBING ... IT ISN’T THE SAME.
There are too many factors to take into account. This clearly isn’t the answer.
Sure let’s make climbing safer, no one disagrees with that.
Let’s find an up date industry specific solution that really works.
 

correct...iRATA always relly on proven/sound anchors(I do have a few friends with that tittle and its their words)in tree work you know the anchor is goood when you reach the floor after finishing the work.

It is worrying to me for the fact that I train and certify climbers and will I be giving up to date legislation and practices with 1 rope???

All input for training level welcome

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18 minutes ago, naturarbo said:

correct...iRATA always relly on proven/sound anchors(I do have a few friends with that tittle and its their words)in tree work you know the anchor is goood when you reach the floor after finishing the work.

It is worrying to me for the fact that I train and certify climbers and will I be giving up to date legislation and practices with 1 rope???

All input for training level welcome

Surely it shouldn’t matter?

 

You are based in Portugal, correct?

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16 hours ago, Konstantly said:

See your points.

 

I  am sure the HSE also do and when the new fully revised documentation is made available to us all it will have plenty of scope for us all as professional tecnisions of wah to have the caveat to bin off this method when seen as and justification is made from the operative to do so.

 

The many posts I have seen of two anchor points on other forums have frankly been comical in the regards of anchor point failure. 

 

I for one will use this technique as an when I see fit.  As I have to good effect when I climbed on DdRT. I have little (but some) use for it on SRWP and again not employed it much.

 

Said it before.. HSE your barking (yapping) up the wrong trees....

 

 

 

Danny have you read the current draft of the icop! There is as it stands no scope to bin off a second line with SRTWP, climbing on DdRT (MRT) there is scope to justify it through risk assessment...

I suggest you make you thoughts on this known.

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1 minute ago, Marc said:

Danny have you read the current draft of the icop! There is as it stands no scope to bin off a second line with SRTWP, climbing on DdRT (MRT) there is scope to justify it through risk assessment...

I suggest you make you thoughts on this known.

No I haven't read it yet Marc. 

Will give it a look.

I think you can guess my response ??

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18 minutes ago, Konstantly said:

No I haven't read it yet Marc. 

Will give it a look.

I think you can guess my response ??

I am disappointed, obviously I’d prefer we remain as a single line standard, as it is in the rest of the world.

Edited by Marc
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1 hour ago, Marc said:

I am disappointed, obviously I’d prefer we remain as a single line standard, as it is in the rest of the world.

I will tow the line where appropriate. But ultimately my disisions for my own hse will boil down to the few years of experience and training have left me with. 

I have developed and moved with my climbing techniques over the years. Have adopted and modified these to make work position more efficient and safe (imo) if this icop made sense I would adopted and integrate it too. 

I will read and digest the icop.

 scotspine1 made a shed load of applicable points in his previous post.

I will not be forced into a methodology of working practices that I see as flawed in the most part.

Long way to go with this yet...

 

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Just had a breeze through the icop.

 

Maybe I missed a bit, but could someone direct me to the bits that state:

 

- you must climb on a system consisting  of two separate ropes 

and

- you should be able to ride either (or both) ropes to the ground at any part of the climbing operation.

Just the section numbers will do!

 

cheers

 

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From the Industry Code of Practice Draft -

 

2.9.2 Work positioning – Moving Rope Technique – MRT A technique where the rope passes over or through an anchor and is formed into a large adjustable loop when both parts are brought together. The operator connects to both parts of the rope; one part remains static (often the termination of the rope) and the other is connected via a midline attachment in the form of a friction-based adjustment element, i.e. a friction hitch or mechanical device. During ascent, descent or lateral movement the rope travels through or over the anchor as a result of the operator’s inputs, i.e. the taking in or letting out of rope from the adjustment element. When this technique is used, the system must incorporate a suitable back-up which the user must be connected to. The use of a single system (i.e. without the use of a back-up) is only acceptable when it can be demonstrated that installing a back-up is not reasonably practicable.

 

2.9.3 Rope access and positioning – Stationary Rope Technique – SRT A technique where the rope passes over or through an anchor or multiple anchors and is secured so that the rope remains stationary. The operator connects to one part of the rope using one or more friction-based adjustment elements and can ascend, descend and move laterally along the rope whilst it remains stationary at the anchor. An SRT system can also consist of two parallel sections of rope in order to enable a friction hitch or a mechanical device to be secured around both parts simultaneously. This could be a single rope doubled over and secured to prevent separation, two independently anchored lines or two independently acting lines. When SRT is used, the system must comprise two independently anchored lines and may only utilise a single line where the use of the second line that entails higher risk*

 

.

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