Two Rope Working Consultation

[Stubby]

7 minutes ago, dumper said:

So why is this not posted by the AA?, 4th of feb leaves very little time to arrange I smell a stitch up 

I received the above in an email this morning  because in the past I had signed the petition .

[dumper]

I signed petionn not received email today is the 2nd of February the supposed meeting is Tuesday they don’t want anybody there if it is going to happen. To arrange a meeting like this takes time so why the exceedingly short notice and absolute silence from the AA the organisation supposedly representing our interest.

Edited February 2, 2020 by dumper

[Stubby]

33 minutes ago, dumper said:

I signed petionn not received email today is the 2nd of February the supposed meeting is Tuesday they don’t want anybody there if it is going to happen. To arrange a meeting like this takes time so why the exceedingly short notice and absolute silence from the AA the organisation supposedly representing our interest.

Why indeed ...

[AA Teccie (Paul)]

41 minutes ago, dumper said:

I signed petionn not received email today is the 2nd of February the supposed meeting is Tuesday they don’t want anybody there if it is going to happen. To arrange a meeting like this takes time so why the exceedingly short notice and absolute silence from the AA the organisation supposedly representing our interest.

I can absolutely assure you we have been working tirelessly subsequent to the ICoP feedback (thank you all.)

The meeting on Tuesday is an AA AWG (Arborist Working Group) event arranged by the Chair and I can also absolutely reassure you "your views" will be very well presented / represented to HSE, and in fact have already been so.

I will feedback further as soon as I am able.

Thanks for your (further) patience.

Paul / AA.

 

[dumper]

15 minutes ago, AA Teccie (Paul) said:

I can absolutely assure you we have been working tirelessly subsequent to the ICoP feedback (thank you all.)

The meeting on Tuesday is an AA AWG (Arborist Working Group) event arranged by the Chair and I can also absolutely reassure you "your views" will be very well presented / represented to HSE, and in fact have already been so.

I will feedback further as soon as I am able.

Thanks for your (further) patience.

Paul / AA.

 

So not a open meeting, why not let us know what’s going on rather than the cloak and dagger secrecy. The lack of information from the AA doesn’t help just a post to let us know what’s happening would reassure people, the members of this forum care enough about their profession to post and reply on this and many other subjects

 the AA in my opinion seem to have the attitude that they know best and we should all keep quiet and carry on until we are sold down the river, I hope this is not the case and your post helps me belive this is not so, however to  become truly representative of our industry you need to engage with the far larger majority of companies and people who are not members of your club. 

[AA Teccie (Paul)]

The meeting has been called by the Chair of the AWG and hence is 'open' to AWG Members...which is open to all AA Members...which is open to all working in the industry, and beyond.

We will let you / 'the industry' know what's happening once we have things completely agreed / 'nailed down' in writing and with HSE endorsement, as is our intention, but we're not quite there yet  

Thanks again for engaging here and I sincerely hope we can issue an update very soon.

ATB,
Paul

 

[Jamie Jones]

50 minutes ago, AA Teccie (Paul) said:

The meeting has been called by the Chair of the AWG and hence is 'open' to AWG Members...which is open to all AA Members...which is open to all working in the industry, and beyond.

We will let you / 'the industry' know what's happening once we have things completely agreed / 'nailed down' in writing and with HSE endorsement, as is our intention, but we're not quite there yet  

Thanks again for engaging here and I sincerely hope we can issue an update very soon.

ATB,
Paul

 

Hi Paul

Thank you for keeping everyone informed as to what is happening. I have been avidly watching this.

There are a few key points that I think has to be put across to the H&S Exec.

1) Trees are not like empty steel framed buildings and other construction site frameworks that the working at height regulations were originally designed for. Trees are often complexed  environments.
2) The equipment used in trees is very different to the equipment that is used for construction and therefore you need to have a different approach. Construction site worker are not trying to manoeuvre chainsaws with big cutting bars. They are mostly installing stuff with nuts, bolts screws etc using the liked of impact guns and wrenches.
3) While no one would disagree that some trees allow plenty of space for two rope and flip-line working there are plenty of trees that do not easily allow for this easily.
4) Two ropes (Plus Flip-line) increases the ability to get equipment tangled up and cause greater problems in movement and accessibility.
5) Taking point 4 into consider action you the have the added fatigue you are putting on the climber.
6) The more equipment, IE Ropes, Flip Lines, Devices etc that is in front of you the harder it can be to manoeuvre a chainsaw safely and the more increased risk there is of the chainsaw cutting something that you don't want it to cut (Safety equipment). This is a key aspect that the construction industry is not facing and if I am correct they do all the cutting on a safe surface. ie the Ground or an elevated floor level.
7) As all this is probably being discussed  in office environments with people who probably have never undertaken this work. I think that it would be beneficially for the H&E department team to actually see this in a practical environment of a tree that would be very difficult to facility two rope working and also a tree where a big heavy chainsaw and longer bar would need to be used. As then they will really see how difficult and possibly more dangerous it can be to increase the amount of equipment (Ropes, Flip Lines, Devices etc) that is obstructing the task from happening. It would even be more beneficial to set them up in the situation and see if they can manoeuvre a big chainsaw. Because until they try it they will never know what it is like to do the task.

I should point out that I am fairly new to Arb climbing and I have no that long ago passed my Tree Climbing and Aerial Rescue ticket. Although I used to rock climb. I have had a bash with two rope & flip-line climbing... I have done a very little chainsaw in a tree work (Only when supervised and under instruction to get an understanding and some basic experience). I am only just about to do my chainsaw in a tree tickets which will have to be done on the two rope system. But watching a more experienced climber from the ground it is evident that in a number of situations the addition equipment would be more of a problem than a benefit.

I am know that there are many people with far more experience than me that can also raise other issues on this now system. But I hope that I can communicate it clearly.

Edited February 2, 2020 by Jamie Jones

[AA Teccie (Paul)]

19 minutes ago, Jamie Jones said:

Hi Paul

Thank you for keeping everyone informed as to what is happening. I have been avidly watching this.

There are a few key points that I think has to be put across to the H&S Exec.

1) Trees are not like empty steel framed buildings and other construction site frameworks that the working at height regulations were originally designed for. Trees are often complexed  environments.
2) The equipment used in trees is very different to the equipment that is used for construction and therefore you need to have a different approach. Construction site worker are not trying to manoeuvre chainsaws with big cutting bars. They are mostly installing stuff with nuts, bolts screws etc using the liked of impact guns and wrenches.
3) While no one would disagree that some trees allow plenty of space for two rope and flip-line working there are plenty of trees that do not easily allow for this easily.
4) Two ropes (Plus Flip-line) increases the ability to get equipment tangled up and cause greater problems in movement and accessibility.
5) Taking point 4 into consider action you the have the added fatigue you are putting on the climber.
6) The more equipment, IE Ropes, Flip Lines, Devices etc that is in front of you the harder it can be to manoeuvre a chainsaw safely and the more increased risk there is of the chainsaw cutting something that you don't want it to cut (Safety equipment). This is a key aspect that the construction industry is not facing and if I am correct they do all the cutting on a safe surface. ie the Ground or an elevated floor level.
7) As all this is probably being discussed  in office environments with people who probably have never undertaken this work. I think that it would be beneficially for the H&E department team to actually see this in a practical environment of a tree that would be very difficult to facility two rope working and also a tree where a big heavy chainsaw and longer bar would need to be used. As then they will really see how difficult and possibly more dangerous it can be to increase the amount of equipment (Ropes, Flip Lines, Devices etc) that is obstructing the task from happening. It would even be more beneficial to set them up in the situation and see if they can manoeuvre a big chainsaw. Because until they try it they will never know what it is like to do the task.

I should point out that I am fairly new to Arb climbing and I have no that long ago passed my Tree Climbing and Aerial Rescue ticket. Although I used to rock climb. I have had a bash with two rope & flip-line climbing... I have done a very little chainsaw in a tree work (Only when supervised and under instruction to get an understanding and some basic experience). I am only just about to do my chainsaw in a tree tickets which will have to be done on the two rope system. But watching a more experienced climber from the ground it is evident that in a number of situations the addition equipment would be more of a problem than a benefit.

I am know that there are many people with far more experience than me that can also raise other issues on this now system. But I hope that I can communicate it clearly.

Jamie, thank you.

 

Your points are valid and very well made and I can assure you have been communicated to HSE and doubtless will be again on Tuesday.

 

Cheers,
Paul

[Rich Rule]

Someone else commented that to equally compare working practices for IRATA to tree work...

 

Get the IRATA climber to install two ropes from the floor, scale to the top.  Drop back down a bit and enter a window.  Go through a room, into a corridor.  Go down a lift shaft into the third floor.  Do some work.  Back up a stairwell at the other side of building into another room then decent back the first floor for some more work then back out the window, climb back up to the top and decent over the backside of the building...

 

All the whole being connected via two ropes.  
 

It is absurd and ludicrous to think it would be a workable solution for IRATA.

 

So as tree climbers, why would we be expected to do it?

[The avantgardener]

Why doesn't every Arborist who is free on Tuesday go down to the meeting ‘French Style’ and make things clear to HSE that this thing stops now.