Two Rope Working Consultation

[openspaceman]

10 hours ago, Mr. Squirrel said:

pass an aerial rescue ticket and then have to log 300 hours in trees before you can get a chainsaw in a tree ticket.

That should boost sales of Silkys

[Mark Bolam]

Meanwhile every unqualified, unticketed, uninsured ‘mobile’ tree surgeon will be having a field day raping all the trees in the domestic sector.

Perhaps HSE should look in that direction for a change?

[MattyF]

Meanwhile every unqualified, unticketed, uninsured ‘mobile’ tree surgeon will be having a field day raping all the trees in the domestic sector.
Perhaps HSE should look in that direction for a change?

Exactly mark these are the tools who are making up the accident statistics in our industry the cowboys.. if this goes through I can genuinely see more accident happening because of it.

[Mr. Squirrel]

11 hours ago, openspaceman said:

That should boost sales of Silkys

Haha aye... That's all you need a lot of the time for lighter pruning and dead wooding work though isn't it. I guess it also means that as a novice you're perhaps more likely to be up a tree with a more experienced climber who's doing the heavier work. From what I've seen I think it builds a more solid base of climbing ability before you start wielding saws up trees. 

 

Also fully agree with Mark though. I think a revision of training + creating a distinction between those who are trying to excel at what they're doing and those who are just mashing trees would be helpful.

[Tom D]

The issue of friction with 2DDRT systems in a dense canopy is not to be underestimated. You could easily find yourself stuck if you had an injury. Plus if the rescuer has to bag in and tie in twice the time it takes to reach a casualty could be excessive. Which then raises the spectre of pre-installing TWO rescue lines. So now there are 4 lines in the tree plus a rigging line if required!

[Craig Johnson]

1 hour ago, Tom D said:

The issue of friction with 2DDRT systems in a dense canopy is not to be underestimated. You could easily find yourself stuck if you had an injury. Plus if the rescuer has to bag in and tie in twice the time it takes to reach a casualty could be excessive. Which then raises the spectre of pre-installing TWO rescue lines. So now there are 4 lines in the tree plus a rigging line if required!

if you had a preinstalled access line and backup, it would be 6 lines, all requiring different anchor points, plus lanyards and H2H connectors, i think that there is upto 14 connection points/carabiners, 

[Si Jo Tee]

If anyone is interested there is a newly published document from the HSE concerning the impact of business to business health and safety rules....

 

HSE Doc.docx

[Raw Tree Care]

Just as a bit of background, I've been climbing trees for 10 years and I have some limited experience in rope access and did have my IRATA level 1 but didn't really use it. I've also been a rock climber for 25 years.

 

I've skimmed the posts above and I think they are all goog points but I'd like to mention a few things that differentiates arb from rope access (where 2 rope are usually used) that I dont think have been mentioned.

 

I believe the whole system, from anchor points to ropes, in rope access should be set up by a level 3 IRATA guy who will have passed 3 different IRATA levels and have at least 3000 hours on rope experience. The level 3 is usually there to supervise the operation and effect a rescue while level 1 and 2 operatives do the work. At least that is the ideology, I'm sure it doesn't happen all the time.

 

I don't think it's really practical to have a more experienced climber inspect the anchor point in a tree and be around just in case while the 'less experienced' guy does the climbing. 

 

But more importantly, industrial rope access is usually a one dimensional process, sometimes two dimensional. The operative usually works from top to bottom (getting the stairs or lift to the top) but the motion is usually up and down with some limited left to right movement. If a large move to the left is required the rope (and anchor point) is usually moved.

 

My point being it's a vertical process that is highly suited to having a working line in the middle and a backup to the left or the right. It's easy to set up, manage and maintain order.

 

Where as in tree work we move up, down, left, right, forward and back. We duck over, under and through limbs and we twist and turn. It's a very 3D process and ropes can easily get tangled. This is obviously less suited to having a working line and a backup line next to each other. We also get into positions above and equal to the anchor point which would not happen in industrial rope access

 

Unless carefully managed two ropes in a tree would quickly tangle and would contribute to operator fatigue. In the worst case, should an accident happen when the ropes are tangled a speedy decent via:

a) ddrt - could result in rope on rope friction that could cause failure of either or both lines

b) srt - could slow down a decent if the ropes are tangled below the point of the climber. 

 

[steve@black]

The point of suitable anchor point installation from the ground perhaps needs to be  questioned . How many of the incidents of anchor point failure are from points put in via throw line or big shot . Trusting your life with something you’ve  looked at 60ft or more away which may only be Three or four inches across and which you can only see the underside of seems something to be questioned . 

 

[Mark Bolam]

I don’t see remote anchors as a problem when accessing SRT.

You can route your line easily so you have plenty of backup from lower limbs if the top point were to fail.

 

Experience and sound choices help, if we are still allowed to think.