Two Rope Working Consultation

[htb]

4 minutes ago, Gary Prentice said:

I wish I had a photo of my first climbing set up for comparison. I haven't so I'll attempt to describe it. 

 

Rope over limb tied to screw gate carabiner with a long-tailed bowline.

Tail from bowline used to tie prussic knot.

Figure eight stop knot.

 

Ain't things changed? 

Similar here.

Some things changed for the better others definitely not.

[Bolt]

1 hour ago, Gary Prentice said:

I wish I had a photo of my first climbing set up for comparison. I haven't so I'll attempt to describe it. 

 

Rope over limb tied to screw gate carabiner with a long-tailed bowline.

Tail from bowline used to tie prussic knot.

Figure eight stop knot.

 

Ain't things changed? 

 

55 minutes ago, htb said:

Similar here.

Some things changed for the better others definitely not.

+1

 

Learning on the classic 3 knot system means that I can still cut any tree I come across with nothing more than a longish rope, a shortish rope and a harness.

 

I look at the complexity of all this ....

 

 

and I just don’t think I could be arsed.

 

[Bolt]

It is very shiny-shiny though.

[Gary Prentice]

5 minutes ago, Bolt said:

It is very shiny-shiny though.

That's a very valid point. Everyone who is knocking this way of working appears to have disregarded the opportunity for loads more bling-bling and shiny stuff on their harnesses. 

 

That's it, I'm sold 

[Jake Andrews]

Have 3 viable systems prior to leaving the ground (2 climbing lines, 1 lanyard).
 
In the case of a single stemmed conifer removal - 2 fliplines and a mainline will suffice as they clearly state above - a lanyard is a, ‘viable system’. You can descend to the ground on twin lanyards should you cut your main line. 
 
Expand this mindset out to an open grown deciduous tree - a short secondary line (which easily falls within the scope a, ‘viable system’ will get you to the ground when used in conjunction with a lanyard should you cut your mainline. 
 
Warren, you wouldn’t use the ropeguide or cambium saver (multisaver etc) for the secondary short rope as it will be used over multiple different anchor points as you work your way around, across, and down through the canopy. 
 
Also, how do you plan to descend out of the tree on the ASAP if you cut your main line? 
 
. 

Both lines must enable decent out of the tree so therefore 2 flip lines wouldn’t work from a spar. The way I see it is 2 work lines (primary and backup if you like) and then a strop for better work positioning when cutting or working.

[RDB logs]

It says “should” touch the ground not “must” touch the ground, ??‍♂️
 

 

[scotspine1]

38 minutes ago, Jake Andrews said:

 

Both lines must enable decent out of the tree so therefore 2 flip lines wouldn’t work from a spar. The way I see it is 2 work lines (primary and backup if you like) and then a strop for better work positioning when cutting or working.

 

 

We’re going round in circles here, this is from the same AA webpage under FAQ 

 

"Q: Will both ropes have to reach the ground?

 

A: New technical guide has been drafted stating that at least one of the systems in use by the operator must be capable of providing an uninterrupted descent to the ground (i.e. without the need for a change of anchor) from any point within the canopy in the event of a self-rescue being required.

During descent under normal climbing conditions, the climber will need to ensure that they remain connected to two systems for the duration of their descent."

 

Recent job. One main life line, one flipline at all times. 

 

Explain to me why anyone would need a second climbing line in this tree? By all means add in a second flipline for change overs on the upwards branch stripping part of the job but from this point on?

 

Two full length lines? 

 

No. 

 

 

 

[Mark J]

5 minutes ago, scotspine1 said:

 

We’re going round in circles here, this is from the same AA webpage under FAQ 

 

"Q: Will both ropes have to reach the ground?

 

A: New technical guide has been drafted stating that at least one of the systems in use by the operator must be capable of providing an uninterrupted descent to the ground (i.e. without the need for a change of anchor) from any point within the canopy in the event of a self-rescue being required.

During descent under normal climbing conditions, the climber will need to ensure that they remain connected to two systems for the duration of their descent."

 

Recent job. One main life line, one flipline at all times. 

 

Explain to me why anyone would need a second climbing line in this tree? By all means add in a second flipline for change overs on the upwards branch stripping part of the job but from this point on?

 

Two full length lines? 

 

No. 

 

 

 

More ropes on a fell like that makes zero sense.

If you showed them that as an example, they'd likely want to know why you were climbing it, when there's access for a MEWP...

[scotspine1]

37 minutes ago, Mark J said:

More ropes on a fell like that makes zero sense.

If you showed them that as an example, they'd likely want to know why you were climbing it, when there's access for a MEWP...

 

I’m not putting a large 30m MEWP on that tree for two reasons. That access road is very narrow which means the outriggers are going down onto soft ground even with large thick underpads I’m not doing it on principle. MEWPS are far from being the wonder solution to tree removal they’re often touted as. That’s coming from someone who’s used them on 100s+ of big dismantles where the ground was rock solid and perfectly flat. 

 

The second reason is that those trees were perfectly healthy and more than suitable for climbing. 

 

Felling from ground level was not an option. 

 

Been doing a fair bit of thinking on this two rope issue on recent climbs like this. Your thoughts occasionally turn to the feasibility of adding in a second line (3 in total) and all that entails. 

 

One major issue that’s not been brought up is that when you add an extra climbing system to your setup it will have a distracting effect on your ability to focus on the tree itself. 3 lines and the additional hardware will undoubtedly dominate your mind to the detriment of your focus on the tree itself and the actual job in hand. 

 

We need to think very carefully as an industry before we adopt this very prescriptive guidance by the HSE and AA who only ever talk in the abstract about our job from the comfort of their warm offices. 

 

 

. 

 

[Jake Andrews]

 
We’re going round in circles here, this is from the same AA webpage under FAQ 
 

"Q: Will both ropes have to reach the ground?

 

A: New technical guide has been drafted stating that at least one of the systems in use by the operator must be capable of providing an uninterrupted descent to the ground (i.e. without the need for a change of anchor) from any point within the canopy in the event of a self-rescue being required.

During descent under normal climbing conditions, the climber will need to ensure that they remain connected to two systems for the duration of their descent."

 

Recent job. One main life line, one flipline at all times. 

 

Explain to me why anyone would need a second climbing line in this tree? By all means add in a second flipline for change overs on the upwards branch stripping part of the job but from this point on?

 

Two full length lines? 

 

No. 

 

 

 

I don’t disagree with what your saying. I’ve always worked with 1 line and a strop. Just the way it’s been done during my time.

The industry is obviously on the change though. You are well within your rights to write out two lines in your RA........... it just needs to be justified if someone major goes wrong. You say why does it need 2 lines, but the question will be, why not?

If something very very unlikely we’re to go wrong on a decent, you’ve got a backup. Is it going to be that taxing to move another system up with you on that particular tree? Probably not.

This whole process will ensure that tree work WILL take longer to perform. We just have to live with that. If anything it may reign in some gun hoe climbers to second think things and slow them down a tad.

I really don’t think this will be that major an issue. Just will take time to familiarise ourselves with.

In saying all this, I haven’t climbed for the last 8 weeks due to snapping a tendon in my thumb but will be back to it after Christmas. I’m kinda looking forward to the challenge to be honest. Onwards and upwards.