Background to the HSE decision on two rope working

[Mark Bolam]

1 hour ago, BenR said:

Well thats my two cents.. with all due respect to everyone there is nothing more to say.

 

It is what it is.. some of us may not like it. But that's how it's supposedly got to be.

 

Thanks for the heads up on the corgi thing. Looks like I need to update my analogies.

Cheers for your input Ben, sorry I dragged you into this shitfest!

Hope you’re well mate.

[Khriss]

Will certainly cover all of this on our next Climber day, I am not sure A) how its an industry decision then B) how industry impliments it - as a climber I know how I view my climbing - but as I am responsible to my Employer and their Client - its a can of worms K

[drinksloe]

Must admit I'm so so glad I don't clmb now other than for myself and mates.

 

But someone summed it up perfectly early on, throwing extra spanners at a s##t mechanic solves nothing.

Throwing extra ropes at poor climbers will only make matters worse as almost everyone has said.

 

The only times I have had a triple lock carb open on my was when climbing on both ends off my rope, granted probably down to my poor rope management and tight spaces, so if ur doing that 100% off time the chances are it could happen more often. 

Not everyone is an expert climber.

 

Looking from the outside I think u have been well and truly shafted by numerous folk, Hse just doing wot they do, possibly the climbers for making it look so easy and I can see how a few folk flying up a single rope with fancy gadgets will look very much like rope access/irata techniques

Thirdly I would say ur asoc the Aa ( althou I would take my hat of to Paul? for coming on here and posting the way he has, fair play to u ) have shafted u big time by setting up a poor demo with no rigging, cutting and also bending over when asked. If they are meant to be looking out for ur interest it should be them writing to MPs and going over Hse's head, not relying on individual members to do it.

[Mick Dempsey]

8 hours ago, AA Teccie (Paul) said:

Hi Mick, you've lost me here (again) please elaborate on what the alternative views / options are? 

 

No, it isn’t really a very good one, poor stuff on my part.

 

What I was trying to say was that the idea that you’re either completely up to date and following every safety procedure or you’re big Gary on a ladder etc...

[Bolt]

On 02/09/2019 at 13:59, dumper said:

Given that the hse is now self funding, their income is from the fines they issue. And climbers will now require more training, and the AA have rolled over and surrendered. It seems this is one big money making excercise for the old boy network, based on dodgy statistics 

 

Fines are issued by the courts, and go to the treasury, not to the HSE.

 

The HSE partially funds itself using FFI (Fees for intervention) which in effect allows them to invoice you for the time they spend investigating you.

 

Although it may seem similar, fines are not tax deductible, whereas fees are (so there's a silver lining).

[LGP Eddie]

Not my thing obviously, and looking like a total shit storm brewing, but how will this impact the one that always puzzles me as an onlooker.

How many ropes will you now need to ride the crane hook legally?

 

Eddie.

[Bolt]

On 03/09/2019 at 21:08, monkeybusiness said:

 

I’m not sure what the answer is - one is obviously less likely to fall to the ground if tied in with double/triple/quadruple the number of ropes and anchor points but the limited statistics available don’t give the full picture. 

 

 

 

A phenomenon well known to health and safety professionals (but clearly less known by the health and safety amateurs so often found throwing their weight about in industry) is something called revenge effects.

 

Revenge effects are a bit like drug side effects in so much as the very attempt that is made to make things better often introduces a new set of hazards.   Sometimes the revenge effect is more hazardous than the original issue.  Sometimes the revenge effect lays undiscovered for years. 

 

Revenge effects are very common, and when I encounter some H+S billshut, I usually look for the revenge effect (just for grins, like a hobby….). 

 

As a climber of decades standing, who started working a few years back on a utility network that insists on two rope working, I was intrigued what the revenge effects of the twin system business would be.  The obvious ones to spring to mind have already been mentioned in this thread…

>  error due to over complication

>  fatigue due to making simple jobs into a faff.

>  poor work positioning due to compromising on anchor point placement because you just can’t be arsed to move multiple tips multiple times.

>  fatigue due to more kit to lug across two ploughed fields and a marshy bog.

>  waste of financial resources that could be more effectively spent elsewhere.

>  etc.

 

In reality, the real revenge effect became apparent much later, and it was this:

I am a real fan of high anchor points.  A good high anchor means that jobs which others can’t do become a piece of cake.  I am too old to struggle, so I always tie in as high as I can as point of principle.  I generally make good choices, and until recently, rarely had that many snap out on me.

 

For me, if you always have two anchor points, you start thinking that as long as one is well selected and sturdy, and the other can ‘push the envelope’ a bit (you do, after all, have backup to catch you…. Literally). 

It is surprising just how much you can rely on a really shabby anchor point when you start using them on a regular basis.  Human nature is that once you start becoming conditioned to making poor anchor point choices, you make them on a more and more regular basis, which I guess is OK…. but only up to the point where neither anchor point turns out to really be that good……

Edited September 6, 2019 by Bolt

[Mike Hill]

13 hours ago, BenR said:

Well thats my two cents.. with all due respect to everyone there is nothing more to say.

 

It is what it is.. some of us may not like it. But that's how it's supposedly got to be.

 

Thanks for the heads up on the corgi thing. Looks like I need to update my analogies.

How much did you get paid for the demo?

[Mark Bolam]

One extra rope.

[AA Teccie (Paul)]

20 minutes ago, Mark Bolam said:

One extra rope.

...plus a signed copy of the updated ICoP!

Edited September 6, 2019 by AA Teccie (Paul)
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