Paddy1000111

This is what I mean though. I don't know anyone who isn't using a positional strop when cutting which means that when we are physically "working" we are abiding to the 2 rope (or 2 anchor whatever you want to call it) ruling. The only time it seems that we aren't is during ascending/descending or generally moving about which going from that report I posted earlier is the time when people are falling by having their anchor fail, knots fail, no stop knot, failure to clip in (the utilities company near me had this happen, climber clipped into a petzl carritool instead of their hip D. There was only 2 occasions of people falling from cutting their climbing line where they weren't using a positional strop (or at least I assume they weren't or they wouldn't have fallen) The only time we aren't already abiding by 2 rope is moving around which is a time that there's no danger of rigging lines etc so whilst being inconvenient I don't think you could call it more dangerous?

Not sure if others are having the same issue but when trying to reply on Android the screen seems to go blank. Only tends to happen when quoting a large post mind. May just be my phone with a large screen?

If you can't buy the bushing, you could press out the one in there and buy one the same size online. A £2.50 bushing beats buying a new crank...

I can see why HSE took the decision though. When reading through the statistics for falls from height in the arb industry for 16-17-18 (I can't find up to date info further than that) The deaths and injuries that occurred would/could have been prevented by having a second anchor which I imagine raised the question of "Why can't they use a second anchor" to which there isn't really a good answer for ascents/descents/moving around unless you're doing rigging where there is a high likeliness of the branch tipping up, going between your two anchors and taking you with it. I'd be curious as to how many of you regularly find yourself just using your one climb line with no other anchor such as a positional strop during cuts? I'm not saying two rope is a good thing, just that I can see why they questioned why we weren't using it. Arboricultural Association - HSE Fall from Height Incidents involving arborists WWW.TREES.ORG.UK <p class= lead bold mb10 >This article contains brief examples of the falls from height reported to HSE under RIDDOR.</p> <p>All injured persons were arborists.</p> <h3...

As above, you're best to make up your own. Ammo boxes, peli cases or anything that can take some abuse make a perfect case. Go to medisave or medtree or any of the big suppliers and first buy a first aid kit refill pack as that covers your requirements as an employer. Add to that two (in case one breaks) CAT or swat-t tourniquets, some haemostatic gauze (2 or more- I quite like woundclot 8x20 as it's the best trade off of size and price), a couple of ice packs, some 20ml saline eye pods as the big bottles are pointless because you chuck 90% away as they don't seal back up and aren't meant to be re-used, you can also use these for flushing crap out of small wounds. Also add some micropore surgical tape or some of the tape stitches (steristrips) and maybe one of the foam roll up splints. Having all that covers you for the basics, the tourniquets and haemostatic gauze cover more industry specific stuff. Those little pods of eye wash are always handy because walking around with a bit of dust in your eye is massively inconvenient and having lots of little pods means you can just use them if needed instead of it being a massive deal to open the eye wash station big bottle. The micropore surgical tape or the little tape stitches are super handy for small cuts that won't stop bleeding as you can pin them closed which plasters won't do. There was talk about climbers first aid kits having to have haemostatic gauze in them as well in the future. Personally the kit on my harness has it and I added one of those 20ml tubes because I have had to come down out the tree before as a bit of dust went through the visor and stuck under my eyelid. Something I could have sorted myself if I had one of those tubes.

MS390.pdf There's the service manual. Page 71- one turn on both high and low jets from seated. You should be tuning with a tach if you have one though or go with peatff's and play it safe

On soft metal caused by over eager tightening. Tighten up till you hear a crack then back it off 1/4 turn and leave it for the next guy 😂 Or the german torque limit- Guten-tighten

Apart from a little added safety or the ability to use two isolated anchors to aid movement I think the only thing that two ropes does is hamper 😂

If I have this right, you've got a pulley as the anchor at the top then the climbers DDRT through that? Assuming your climber and groundie weigh the same lets say 90kg= The Hauling line (ddrt tail) would need the same pulling force as the climbers weight to get him up in the air as you have no mechanical advantage. So your groundie would have to pull 90kg up the tree. Your TIP would experience the climbers weight plus the groundies weight so 180kg. But you have it base tied so 360kg. No different to an SRT system with a base tie. The base tie experiences the same force as the climbers weight, the TIP experiences the climbers weight plus the counteracting base tie so double?

Going to back to where we were on page 4 😂 What DMM grommets are you using on yours?

If anything it's shown the major demographic of this forum is self employed guys/small companies

I'm not 100% sure on how the ins and outs of the law system works but from what I know- The Health and Safety at work act 1974 made it a legal requirement for an employee to follow the legislation laid out in the act. An act is an act of parliament. If you do not follow the rulings of the act it is a criminal offence. Part of that act is statutory instruments (regulations) which form part of the law, the Work At Height Regulations 2005 are part of that. As they are rolled into the act above it is also a criminal offence to break those rules too. Below that are ACOP's or Approved Codes Of Practice which are psudolaw effectively. They are re-written versions of the Act and its regulations which are easier to read than sections and subsections. Then there is Guidance which isn't part of the law. That Is given by HSE as a "Best Practice" and isn't punishable in any way. Here's some references if anyone thinks I am completely off I would love to know: Health and safety at work: criminal and civil law - Health and safety law (criminal law) - HSE WWW.HSE.GOV.UK The Health and Safety at Work etc Act 1974 is the main legislation covering occupational health and safety in Great Britain. The Work at Height Regulations 2005 WWW.LEGISLATION.GOV.UK

Oh, are you on about the bit where I said "The law doesn't require you to use two ropes all the time"? What I mean't by that was that there are circumstances where one is acceptable but I can't name many. Usually you would have a climb line and a positional strop. I can't think of many circumstances where you wouldn't/couldn't have 2 anchors. The draft AA guidance has a bit about dropping down to one anchor when stationary to allow for a repositioning of the second anchor. The health and safety at work 1974 requires that anyone working for a company including the CEO must abide by the regulations. One Regulation (not guidance) of HSE is the Working at height act 2005. In there, two main types of harness use are identified, fall arrest (schedule 5 part 1) and work positioning (schedule 5 part 2) Fall arrest is for when you are working in a platform as an accident mitigator like being tied into a MEWP, those systems only require one anchor. We use work positioning harnesses which fall into part two. Ontop of the requirements of a fall arrest harness a work positioning harness MUST have a suitable secondary backup system except where it is "Not reasonably practicable to comply" (this is the bit where I said about it not being hard law that you always have to have 2 anchors). That last bit is what changed last year, from what I took from it, it was always assumed that it wasn't reasonable practicable to use a second system in a tree but then the offices had a re-arrangement or some new blood and then HSE decided that there is no reason why climbers can't use a secondary system and hence it rolled in. The industry guidance from HSE changed, the guidance from the AA changed and the training from NPTC changed too. Yes, it's impractical but they aren't wrong. There isn't really any reason why you cant have 2 anchors in a tree unless you're doing some really sketchy rigging. Most people are already using 2 rope for the most part, they have a primary climb line and then when they are cutting they use a positional strop. The only thing that's really changed is you need to retain a second anchor when ascending, descending and moving around. In short, yes, it's law 😂

I can see why people get pissed too. I don't have a lot of time on the arb front but my entire time in aviation was spent using aerial access equipment, fall restraint gear and work positioning kit. All of those come under the exact same HSE ruling that this industry does (Work at height 2005) so whilst I may not have a lot of experience in a tree, I do have a lot of experience in a harness. I also have a lot of experience of the Work at Height act and what it entails having to be update trained yearly. The only difference is before the ruling last year the arb sector had a more relaxed approach to the rules and had certain exemptions. When the ruling came in saying that the arb sector had to conform to current regulations it's closed the gap meaning that the difference in what you can and can't do anchor wise when attached to a branch or a beam are no longer much different. Outside of regulations and what's on paper you're right, they are night and day!

It comes under Work at Height Regulations 2005 which are law. HSE also do guidelines which like you say, aren't legally binding. Thanks Mick and Mark, like I said, I'm not here to set rules and tell people what to do. I just pointed out what HSE's standpoint is and my only aim with this thread was to make life easier for those stuck with their decisions, however crappy, inconvenient and un-thought out they are!

Like you say I don't think it would make much of a difference on a single line as the twist in the rope can pass through the VT. That Gyro works a treat when you have two anchors though as you can move around and rotate without the ropes being tangled. Only downside is that the ring has a small bend radius and isn't big enough to use with strap type bridges.

Yea 100% that's what the Treemotion Evo was designed for. The gyro means that everything twists independently though so you can rotate around two anchors and remove twists in the line whilst the weight is on and you're attached

Well considering that this was my thread, that I started and it was a good constructive discussion since the 9th of december last year, I wouldn't suggest that it was me that started the BS from page 5 on

I just want to go back to page 4 where there was constructive discussion about harness bridge connections and go back to the whole point in this thread which was to improve products. I don't really have much of a viewpoint. I'm not telling you that you're climbing wrong and you must start abiding by the rules, I really don't care what you guys do up a tree. I'm not looking for a right and wrong out of this. Just for the incessant argument about if the requirements for two anchors exists or not to end.

That wasn't aimed at you, more paraphrasing the people who refuse to accept that 2 anchor is the new standard to which we are meant to work by and the only proof I get is "I've been doing this longer than you, you know nothing". Like I said, I don't care what you do in your own work but don't refuse that the rulings exist or that HSE COULD take you to court for not following them. I'm not saying they are hiding in hedges waiting to catch you out but coming on here saying that two anchors aren't needed at any point if you put it in the RA is a complete waste of mine and everyone elses time. This thread was meant to be a constructive one to get new gear after a similar post about what harness connection for two anchors etc. We're just going in circles here, I say the law says we're meant to, which it does. Someone tells me that two anchor requirements don't exist which is contrary to HSE, AA guidance, NPTC assessments and the current mess that is climbing for a large company then someone says about how many years they've been doing the job. Let's just give it a rest and say we don't agree on 2 anchor and get back to harness attachments which was the whole reason this thread was created...

I completely agree with you on the forum front. I just want conversation about topics not a "You know nothing, just shut up" approach. But anyway... The NPTC guidelines are foggy at the moment with the pretty recent changeover and the training had to rapidly change to meet this new standard. Currently the rules say, as far as I am aware, that during training and the assessment you must be attached to the tree with at least 2 anchors at all times. That can be whatever you want, 2 ropes, 1 rope 1 strop but 1 rope MUST reach the ground at any time. For spiking up poles it's the same, 2 anchors at all times including one rope that must reach the ground so you are expected to climb with one lanyard (say a steel flipline) around the tree and crossed over on the front or it doesn't count as an anchor and then one end of a climbing rope in choker around the tree with a prussik or other attachment method to your harness so you drag the rope up with you. From my last assessment which was late last year although I have cs40 soon so I can review it again, there's currently no allowance in the guidelines for dropping down to one tie in although there are "special circumstances" in the guidelines from hse etc they aren't permitted in an assessment. Going into real life, just to confirm my stand point- HSE requires we climb on two ropes except special circumstances. I don't care what you guys do, but some of us HAVE to use the two rope techniques taught on the NPTC courses as an industry standard. I only started this thread as a product review/what do people want in a harness connection thing. I never intended on this being a grudge match/who can shout the loudest. I really don't care what peoples opinion is on two rope techniques and I just got a bit frustrated with the "You don't need to use two rope techniques, you can have one anchor at all times, You don't know anything" attitude which I got from somewhere about page 4. It isn't constructive and doesn't prove anything, if people want to climb on one anchor at all times then go for it, it doesn't effect me at all 😂

Then please do prove me wrong. Anyway... Going back to harness connections. Anyone got anything constructive?

That's not what I was told by an instructor and the assessor but there we go. There's absolutely no reason why you can't ascend, move around and descend with 2 anchors. Rigging and making certain cuts I agree can't always be done with 2 anchors but that is allowed for. Either way, if you pull up to a tree on an assessment, be it spiking up a pole or climbing a tree for a course you will fail if you have one anchor and no backup unless you have a special reason when up the tree although as far as I am aware there isn't one for NPTC assessments. You will also, by current standards fail a cs38 if you disconnect to one anchor at any point. At the end of the day this thread has gone way off topic. The industry is meant to be using 2 anchor points, like it or not as we are meant to be working to HSE standards. If you do it or not is up to you, I really couldn't care less. Some are forced to use it because of company policies. The only point in this thread was to get feedback from people using two rope or the gyro and find out what they would want in a product but it's as usual become a grudge match for who knows more. Neither you nor I make the decisions for climbers in utilities, rail, highways or bigger domestic companies so arguing about weather or not you're required to use it makes no difference at all. Just accept the fact that some of us HAVE to use it, and this thread was an opportunity to make life easier and get product feedback. It was never intended in the titles or original posts to be a "If you're not climbing two rope you are useless at your job" If you have no constructive comments about the gyro or what you would want in harness connection then there's no point in being here?

None of this fixes the fact that guys who work for bigger companies or keep up to date with the industry code of practice for either themselves or their clients MUST climb with a two rope/two anchor technique. Currently there's no "perfect" solution to harness connections which this thread was created to try and solve. Just because you say it doesn't exist doesn't mean that it's not an issue for anyone else who is required to follow the rules. It's like saying poverty doesn't exist because you have a fat bank account. It doesn't help anyone who's actually broke.

Sorry but the general term on this forum is "2 rope" : But I will use "Two anchor" from now on so you don't get upset. I would suggest consulting any large tree company that's now requiring full 2 rope (anchor) compliance or the fact that you will fail any NPTC course involving climbing if you are on one rope at ANY point including changing anchors. From the arboriculture industry code of practice: the operator should be connected to a backup that provides a fail-to-safe in the event of failure of the primary system, during ascent, moving around the tree and descent: 1. any system employed to act as a backup must: i. limit the distance and consequences of a fall if the primary system, including main line, components or anchor, were to fail; ii. use an anchor which is independent of the primary system anchor or, if there is not one that is suitable, be installed over a shared anchor. 2. the backup may only be omitted in cases where it is not practical to maintain it for specific, short-duration tasks. In such circumstances, all measures must be taken to ensure that the primary system anchor point and the personal fall protection system cannot fail. I'm not saying that the law requires you to use two ropes all the time and there's no excuse. I am saying that if you're climbing a tree, according to hse and the AA you should be using two rope techniques unless you are carrying out a specific task where it's not safe like some sort of dangerous cut and then it is only applicable for that one specific task not your entire climb That ruling doesn't say "You can climb single rope as long as you say that 2 rope isn't practical"