Paddy1000111

I'm not telling people what to do though? I don't even know what we're arguing about anymore. Are we arguing that if you have two tie in anchors on two ropes and you cut one off then you're going to get cut in half if it drops or that you will get crushed if you have a positional strop on and you cut off your anchor? Because I agree with the last one? It's not here telling people what to or what not to do. I just expressed my opinion on 2 rope from my experience and I was told that my inexperience shows I have no idea what I am talking about which is garbage when we are talking about a theoretical situation anyway. If someone proves me wrong I will accept that, but it's not been done so far. One comment was saying that the major cause of injury was people cutting off the part of the tree that they were anchored too which isn't one report on falls from height (not that it doesn't happen) The other was that if you have your two top anchors tied into the rope bridge that if you cut one off the harness would crush you which simply isn't true.

Sorry will but that's not how physics works...

I wonder if it's the issue with a fall arrest system being defined differently to a work positioning system in the eyes of HSE? Like you say, according to the regs you need two independent systems not one work positioning and one fall arrest. Maybe it comes down to transitioning? A fall arrest device isn't designed to take the users body weight except in the case of a fall? Disregard that, it's allowed with h&s so must be an industry specific thing. I'd like to know if you find out 👌

Yea, that's correct. Not going to debate that. It was more a case of being told that my lack of experience means that I'm being an idiot and not realising that having an anchor and being pulled on would cut me in half which isn't correct except for a positional strop 🤷🏼‍♂️ Having two anchors does make it more likely for you to do that though, you're right

I 100% agree about the lanyard like I said in the previous comment but that won't change between one rope or two. In saying that, if you have one rope and you're lanyard then you're already abiding by two rope anyway

Okay so anchor in tree, rope from that anchor onto the ring on your rope bridge on your harness, then from the same ring down another rope onto a piece of wood that was your original anchor. How is that going to impart any loading or crushing force onto your harness. If we're on about cutting off the anchor and all the force being taken up by your positional strop on your hip d's then yea, I agree, nice way to get an open book fracture. It's not about experience because no, I don't have any experience of cutting off the top of a tree with my anchor still attached to it and having one ton of wood hanging from my rope bridge. Like you say though, it might break something, it might not. All depends on how it falls and how far. The other choice in this is you have cut the top of the tree off that has your anchor in it and one tonne of wood drags you out the tree accelerating you for the 50ft fall before power-driving you into the ground. If in your experience of having one ton of wood hanging from your harness because you seem confident to bring up experience here- do tell me how the force on the ring is transposed into a crushing force on the harness? Let me just make it clear here, I am on about the difference between you cutting the part of the tree with the anchor attached in single rope vs double rope. You're getting dragged out regardless. I would rather have a chance that I'm not power-drived into the ground.

I've pruned larger, and rigged down bits from larger but not done a full top to bottom dismantle on larger. Just being honest, the job hasn't come up and being self employed and having freelanced on bigger jobs I don't think I would take it on myself, to big of a risk quote/profit wise. I don't see what difference that makes to how I feel about using two anchors though. I'm not making the rules for others nor am I telling people what to do with them, just expressing how I feel about using two anchors and what my experience has been with it.

Add onto that bosses/guys who have more time in the saddle telling you how much better they are than you and how much quicker and more experienced they are and you have a good mix for an accident 😕

Like I said, rough ride 😂 I'd prefer getting thrown around, maybe breaking an arm than being dragged 50ft to the ground by a 1 tonne weight though...

Yes I have actually 60ft beech was probably the biggest so far. I just feel like if you're going to cut the top off that has your anchor I would rather be anchored in somewhere else than just fall 40/50ft. Either the bit falls on your side and you get strung between two anchors with the pulling force being taken up by the bridge ring or the rope bridge itself or it falls away and the rope goes into the crotch and pulls you up the tree and you get caught in a crotch which would be quite bad. Questionable as to if it would be worse than falling 50ft whilst being tied to a 1 tonne weight

I wonder sometimes if you have the ability to discuss things with people normally? My point was if you have an anchor in the tree and your other anchor has fallen you're going to have a rough ride but you will be strung between the two if they're connected to your rope bridge or to a bridge ring? It's not experience it's just logic? But by all means, throw a hissy fit? I'm not getting shitty with anyone, that's on you.

It shouldn't. No ropes are tied to either side of you. Unless you have the ropes wrapped around your torso you will just be between the two?

Like you said, the lines can take ~ 2.6tonnes. depend how strong the anchor is... If you have them clipped into the same ring/bridge you might be in for a rough ride but I'd rather have a rough ride and cut a limb free than get accelerated towards the ground by 1 tonne of wood and fall 50ft

Have a look at that AA report I posted a page or so back, most of the falls were caused by improperly tied knots, no end stop knot, clip in failure or cutting the rope with a chainsaw. Theoretically with two anchors, if you cut the bit you're anchored to if you had both anchors on that bit then you're going down just like if you only had one anchor. If you have 2 separate anchors and you cut the bit one anchor is on then the other anchor might hold you and the bit you cut off depending on what you chose as an anchor. Then you can cut that line free. https://www.trees.org.uk/News-Blog/Latest-News/HSE-Fall-from-Height-Incidents-involving-arborists

Well this is what I mean, you don't necessarily have to be trained, just proved competent. Currently there's no such thing as a nptc SRT course so how do you prove competence? Reading the manuals that came with your climbing kit? SRT is just a different method, your still tying the same knots, doing the same thing, just the rope layout has changed. How do you prove competency?

I'd call that a ban rather than a disclaimer then? I know the utilities company by me is designing an SRT training course for their climbers as currently one doesn't exist. I was told I can do the nptc assesments on srt if I wanted though. I genuinely wonder where the line is drawn. If you do your training with a hitch climber can you use a zigzag? What about a petzl ID? If you did it with a prussic can you use a hitch climber? I can't find anything about what techniques you can and can't use, just that you've been appropriately trained, the nptc course doesnt cover SRT on paper but if the instructor (who climbed SRT for the course) teaches you for half a day on srt does that cover you?

This goes back to my question before though. SRT is just a technique, you can still use SRT whilst abiding by 2 anchor

In what sense? Disclaimers about using SRT or a disclaimer about using 2 anchors?

I also use them for installing one line where I can't use a throw bag. Sometimes it's quicker to just select a branch especially in a dense crown. I find it quicker and easier (admittedly not as quick as just throwing up one line), especially on smaller trees up to say 40ft to just select my final anchor using 30ft of poles than progress my anchor, clipping and unclipping the whole way... Our of interest, climbing with two anchors, do you really find that the additional couple of minutes here and there makes you not economical as a climber?

Out of interest, what would your usual approach be to climbing a 50ft leylandii with branches every 6 inches?

Yea, I agree. I wouldn't say compromising safety should be a priority for a few seconds extra though. I'm not insinuating anything about anyone's climbing here but it shouldn't take more than 3 minutes at the start of a climb to factor in a second anchor and it shouldn't take more than 10 seconds to fling a long positional strop around a branch. From the draft AA guide they say you can drop to one anchor when stationary on a branch etc to change anchors which makes sense. In industry climbers aren't sent up with 3 anchors but transition one of the two when stationary. It doesn't take much to add in an additional anchor as you progress. Yes it's not as quick as putting up one srt line and rope walking to the top but where do you draw the line? A lot of time up the tree is spent waiting for groundies to clear brash or send a rigging line back up. 10 seconds of that can be spent moving an anchor

I'm not telling others what to do. You can throw in a quote of me telling people what to do if you like, in fact, I've regularly said I'm not telling people what to do Like I said, two independent anchors or one strong anchor if that isn't available to keep both lines on the same lay to avoid a branch hooking you and dragging you in I just find it interesting that it's a discussion with people about two rope and everyone's constructive until you arrive and it's like scratching my balls with a belt sander... 😂

I think you need to go back and redo your nptc training then come back and tell me what the rules are 😂

That's true, it's one of those things though. Two anchor is, as it says, two anchor. It doesn't necessarily have to be two separate branches or two separate growths. I've often tied into to the same large limb or two separate but very close anchors. I use a 10m positional strop with the tail stowed in a bag which can go into nearby crotches. It removes the risks of a branch snapping and there being no backup or a climbing system failure (knots, cut rope, etc) whilst maintaining the ability to swing out the way if needed. In reality the rules allow you to be on one rope where having two ropes is a higher risk. It just seems like a lot of people seem to confuse "safer" with "I'll just put in the risk assessment that one rope is safer" which isn't the same... At the end of the day, like I was saying on that other topic, it's down to the climber what they do. They just have to be aware that it *could* come back to bite them 🤷🏼‍♂️ I often wonder if topics like this are going to make HSE use someone as an example or set a president with a single rope fall to stamp their foot down!

100% not! That is however when the exclusions come in and the ability to decide when it's safer not to use it. My point is, that's not an everyday issue...