Making the news today....

[Johnsond]

18 minutes ago, Youngstu said:

I do have a degree of sympathy for those whose livelihoods may be affected by changes to the rules around shooting etc and even those who may find their "sport" becoming outlawed, but when you look at how these shooting estates came into existence to cater for these activities, and the wholescale destruction of wild species that was necessary (or deemed necessary!) it would surely be a good thing to allow them to go back to how they used to be if it was ever possible considering the local extinction of many of the species concerned. 

 

I'm currently reading a book called  Rebirding, Restoring Britain's Wildlife. It's an interesting read so far but some of the facts and figures for the intentional decimation of unwanted wild species are horrifying such as this example: 

 

"On Glengarry Estate , in the Highlands, between 1837 and 1840 alone, 27 white-tailed eagles, 18 golden eagles, 18 ospreys, 275 red kites, 63 goshawks, 462 kestrels, 285 buzzards, 63 hen harriers and 198 wild cats were killed - the records meticulously noted by the person that killed them."

 

We may not get everything back and certainly not in our lifetimes, but if a significant part of these upland areas was returned to nature without the removal of unwanted species to protect the chosen few, surely this would be a good legacy for future generations?

 

I think you will find the impact modern farming methods make to the ecological balance of the countryside are thousands of times more harmful than the shooting you describe. My point is and your comments confirm what I said is that people whom are not affected by it don’t care. Like I say it’s not my thing, tweeds and expensive shotguns but it won’t be a sensible focused bit of legislation as in all things firearms and shooting control it will instead  be a knee jerk pandering to the urban left whom despise the countryside and in many cases have zero idea of the husbandry involved in maintaining it. Unless you are a FAC holder and have been on the receiving end of totally unjustified legislation then it’s difficult to realise how easy it is for governments to just legislate a minority sport out of existence. 
 

[David Cropper]

If there was no control over keeping the numbers down, it would be a catastrophe. The amount of deer in the UK has exploded in the last few years. Remember they have no natural predators, apart from man. Here in France due to the lockdown and La Chasse not being able to be out and about, the numbers of wild boar have been very noticeable. On my morning dog walk I see the damage where they've been rooting in the fields and roadside verges, this is literally on the edge of the village. If you hit one in your car, by Christ you'd know about it. Animal numbers have to be controlled or the result will be disastrous. The rabid green mob who want everyone to eat veg rather than meat, what will happen to the existing herds, meat and milkers. Farmers can't keep them, wholesale slaughter will ensue, breeds will be extinct. 

[Mick Dempsey]

Still hunting here David, are you sure your lot have stopped?

[Youngstu]

2 minutes ago, David Cropper said:

If there was no control over keeping the numbers down, it would be a catastrophe. The amount of deer in the UK has exploded in the last few years. Remember they have no natural predators, apart from man. Here in France due to the lockdown and La Chasse not being able to be out and about, the numbers of wild boar have been very noticeable. On my morning dog walk I see the damage where they've been rooting in the fields and roadside verges, this is literally on the edge of the village. If you hit one in your car, by Christ you'd know about it. Animal numbers have to be controlled or the result will be disastrous. The rabid green mob who want everyone to eat veg rather than meat, what will happen to the existing herds, meat and milkers. Farmers can't keep them, wholesale slaughter will ensue, breeds will be extinct. 

I have absolutely no issue with deer and other pest species being killed/culled/controlled where they are causing damage to the ecosystems and I fully agree that there are too many and it is an important management tool. I'd guess that my issue is with controlling the wild/natural predators of the profitable chosen sport species, especially where this is regularly done so illegally and using dangerous/inhumane methods. I assume that this is much more of a problem where the chosen species are grouse, pheasant etc and the number and variety of predators is larger, and their vulnerability is greater. Without having the figures at hand I would hazard a guess that the deer populations on the estates where their shooting is part of the business may well be too high for the other species in the ecosystem so they have enough for shooting but happy to be corrected if this isn't the case. 

 

[Youngstu]

22 minutes ago, Mike Hill said:

Hard one.

 

What part of the UK do you live in Youngstu?

South West. Too many Deer down here and the woods are overrun with pheasants at this time of year!

 

[David Cropper]

3 minutes ago, Youngstu said:

I have absolutely no issue with deer and other pest species being killed/culled/controlled where they are causing damage to the ecosystems and I fully agree that there are too many and it is an important management tool. I'd guess that my issue is with controlling the wild/natural predators of the profitable chosen sport species, especially where this is regularly done so illegally and using dangerous/inhumane methods. I assume that this is much more of a problem where the chosen species are grouse, pheasant etc and the number and variety of predators is larger, and their vulnerability is greater. Without having the figures at hand I would hazard a guess that the deer populations on the estates where their shooting is part of the business may well be too high for the other species in the ecosystem so they have enough for shooting but happy to be corrected if this isn't the case. 

 

Well thought out and written. I thought I would end up argueing my corner with you. As to deer numbers on shooting estates, the numbers are vigorously controlled to ensure the wellbeing of the stock. A good stalker will establish good breeding animals, he will weed out the old and weak, leaving a healthy amount to carry on the species. There is only so much feed to go round for the numbers you decide can be sustainable. It is an art form getting it right. I realise there are estates who don't do things correctly or act in the best interests of the beasts on the ground, but they are in the minority.  I sincerely hope so.

[Youngstu]

1 hour ago, David Cropper said:

Well thought out and written. I thought I would end up argueing my corner with you. As to deer numbers on shooting estates, the numbers are vigorously controlled to ensure the wellbeing of the stock. A good stalker will establish good breeding animals, he will weed out the old and weak, leaving a healthy amount to carry on the species. There is only so much feed to go round for the numbers you decide can be sustainable. It is an art form getting it right. I realise there are estates who don't do things correctly or act in the best interests of the beasts on the ground, but they are in the minority.  I sincerely hope so.

It's good to hear that this is the case for the deer focused shooting estates and hopefully this provides good "sport" for those willing to pay and be involved in more of a stalking experience. From this information it certainly seems that the grouse and pheasant focused estates/shoots give some of the more environmentally sustainable and less damaging options a bad name with the apparent importance of controlling the predators of the birds that they are rearing for the shoot. 

[woodwizzard]

1 hour ago, David Cropper said:

Well thought out and written. I thought I would end up argueing my corner with you. As to deer numbers on shooting estates, the numbers are vigorously controlled to ensure the wellbeing of the stock. A good stalker will establish good breeding animals, he will weed out the old and weak, leaving a healthy amount to carry on the species. There is only so much feed to go round for the numbers you decide can be sustainable. It is an art form getting it right. I realise there are estates who don't do things correctly or act in the best interests of the beasts on the ground, but they are in the minority.  I sincerely hope so.

Unlike the stag hounds then. They are only interested in the stags in their prime that will run all day and provide a good trophy head. They claim they only seek out the old and weak as some form of justification to their (now illegal) activities, but that's just bs.

Edited November 28, 2020 by woodwizzard

[kevinjohnsonmbe]

2 hours ago, Johnsond said:

urban left whom despise the countryside and in many cases have zero idea of the husbandry involved in maintaining it.
 

 

A (not uncommon) frequently deployed sweeping generalisation. 
 

True enough, there will be some of that bent, but there is no shortage of rural dwelling country folk with SG & FAC that certainly don’t fit that mould J. 

2 hours ago, Johnsond said:

 

Unless you are a FAC holder and have been on the receiving end of totally unjustified legislation then it’s difficult to realise how easy it is for governments to just legislate a minority sport out of existence. 

 

[Johnsond]

4 minutes ago, kevinjohnsonmbe said:

 

A (not uncommon) frequently deployed sweeping generalisation. 
 

True enough, there will be some of that bent, but there is no shortage of rural dwelling country folk with SG & FAC that certainly don’t fit that mould J. 

 

?‍♂️ What mould