Vat killing me!

[Mull]

but is this not yr life choice ,correct me if im wrong

 

 

It is his life choice, I just don't think he wants to be accused of being over subsidised!

[csservices]

but is this not yr life choice ,correct me if im wrong

Yes it is, hence why I get a little irate when people start preaching about what farmers do, based on what they have seen or read of a minority.

 

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[csservices]

It is his life choice, I just don't think he wants to be accused of being over subsidised!

This is my other bugbear, I dont claim subsidies, never have and dont agree with them.

 

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[Mull]

This is my other bugbear, I dont claim subsidies, never have and dont agree with them.

 

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How the feck do you make money farming??? You may well be the answer to this discussion!

[csservices]

How the feck do you make money farming??? You may well be the answer to this discussion!

Carefully and even then not always 😁 run a simple grass based system, buy stock at the right price, try and control inputs like medicines which are one of the biggest costs by rotational grazing and clean and well ventilated sheds, winter costs are kept down by using woodchip for bedding as I can get it free.

Doesnt always work, up to 3 years ago I had one of the top herds of gloucestershire old spot pigs in the country, had all the blood lines and we were well known for quality stock, but when we started feed was £5 a bag and weaners fetched £45 at 8 weeks when weaned, when we finally packed in feed was nearer £10 a bag and we were struggling to £25 a weaner, now traditional pork is popular again and I keep getting calls from people desperate to buy old spots as so many people gave up the same time as us that they have gone rarer again so would be worth having them again, but at the time we finally gave up I was having to find £600 a month from elsewhere to pay the feed bill.

 

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[kevinjohnsonmbe]

You're right there mate, not the same for everyone at all, it's a mess which to be fair they are trying to sort out to a degree, slipper farming should be on its way out as we speak hopefully, it's got to be production based at the very least. But then again if the all powerful supermarkets insist on paying 23p for a litre of milk that costs 30p to produce, then the mess will continue.

What do you think of the supermarkets role in this Kevin? I'd be interested in your (and anyone else's ) opinion.

 

 

 

Morning Mull!

 

I hadn't missed it, nor was I trying to duck your very well placed question, just wanted some thinking time before replying.

 

On the one hand, your question highlights the critical essence of why the current system is doomed to fail - without subsidy / central intervention in free market economics.

 

And on the other, it kind of highlights the simple and fundamentally obvious solution - which contradicts the 'tie subsidy to production' (which has been tried before) concept.

 

Price is (normally) dictated by availability, supply and demand. There is an argument that strategic resources (in this case food) might warrant a degree of central intervention but the problem, to my mind, is that it should be one or the other not a mixture of both.

 

Either it IS strategically important and it is centrally controlled or it ISN'T and normal market forces apply.

 

Either, this mess exists as a consequence of the recent history of selective drawing back of central control (dismantling the MMB for example) whilst retaining subsidy, then allowing mega buyers to dictate prices.

 

Or, it is a case of excess product suppressing prices - scarcity pushes prices up.

 

Also, important not to (excuse the pun) discount the effect of mega buyers artificially suppressing price to attract custom to the store. That said, either full-on centralised control or allow the supply to naturally wither such that only the most innovative and efficient survive would also change the dynamic.

 

Bah, blame TESCO and start buying local!

[Richard 1234]

Morning Mull!

 

 

 

I hadn't missed it, nor was I trying to duck your very well placed question, just wanted some thinking time before replying.

 

 

 

On the one hand, your question highlights the critical essence of why the current system is doomed to fail - without subsidy / central intervention in free market economics.

 

 

 

And on the other, it kind of highlights the simple and fundamentally obvious solution - which contradicts the 'tie subsidy to production' (which has been tried before) concept.

 

 

 

Price is (normally) dictated by availability, supply and demand. There is an argument that strategic resources (in this case food) might warrant a degree of central intervention but the problem, to my mind, is that it should be one or the other not a mixture of both.

 

 

 

Either it IS strategically important and it is centrally controlled or it ISN'T and normal market forces apply.

 

 

 

Either, this mess exists as a consequence of the recent history of selective drawing back of central control (dismantling the MMB for example) whilst retaining subsidy, then allowing mega buyers to dictate prices.

 

 

 

Or, it is a case of excess product suppressing prices - scarcity pushes prices up.

 

 

 

Also, important not to (excuse the pun) discount the effect of mega buyers artificially suppressing price to attract custom to the store. That said, either full-on centralised control or allow the supply to naturally wither such that only the most innovative and efficient survive would also change the dynamic.

 

 

 

Bah, blame TESCO and start buying local!

 

 

In my mind the government are in a position to help with brexit coming.

They could and should have some import taxes on food coming in from abroad. Which in theory at least would raise prices. Going some way to Negating the need for subsidies.

I think we can agree that food production is something that needs to be protected.

[Jonny69]

Morning Mull!

 

I hadn't missed it, nor was I trying to duck your very well placed question, just wanted some thinking time before replying.

 

On the one hand, your question highlights the critical essence of why the current system is doomed to fail - without subsidy / central intervention in free market economics.

 

And on the other, it kind of highlights the simple and fundamentally obvious solution - which contradicts the 'tie subsidy to production' (which has been tried before) concept.

 

Price is (normally) dictated by availability, supply and demand. There is an argument that strategic resources (in this case food) might warrant a degree of central intervention but the problem, to my mind, is that it should be one or the other not a mixture of both.

 

Either it IS strategically important and it is centrally controlled or it ISN'T and normal market forces apply.

 

Either, this mess exists as a consequence of the recent history of selective drawing back of central control (dismantling the MMB for example) whilst retaining subsidy, then allowing mega buyers to dictate prices.

 

Or, it is a case of excess product suppressing prices - scarcity pushes prices up.

 

Also, important not to (excuse the pun) discount the effect of mega buyers artificially suppressing price to attract custom to the store. That said, either full-on centralised control or allow the supply to naturally wither such that only the most innovative and efficient survive would also change the dynamic.

 

Bah, blame TESCO and start buying local!

 

Whilst the French are far from perfect...........

 

Where my brother lived they had a milk machine in the town center. You took your own bottle. Put in a Euro (or however much it is) and it gave you some very fresh milk. In fact, about the best milk I have ever had.

 

Whilst this little story seems pointless, there is a point. Capitalism is working and the local supplier sells for the price he wants direct to the consumer.

 

This is of course no way to feed and 60million people but farmers have got to do something for themselves instead of constantly moaning about the price of this and that.

 

They need to become efficient businesses rather than messing about, like a lot that I know seem to.

 

If we keep allowing them subsidy you are essentially perpetuating the problem through the generations.

 

To paraphrase Ron Swanson "Capitalism, gods way of separating the rich from the stupid" Although the subsidy skews this unfairly when comparing agriculture to almost any other business

[matelot]

I think we can agree that food production is something that needs to be protected.

 

Why? Do you think a fleet of EU submarines is going to blockade shipping to the UK?

 

Most clothing and electronics are imported. Why should we be bothered if the country isn't self sufficient in food?

 

imho, the billions spent on farming would be better spent subsidising growth industries like robotics/ high tech materials/ batteries etc. These are actually industries that could provide highly paid jobs etc. It always amazes me how little economic product a farm worth millions produces. For instance a 2,000 acre hill farm might be worth £2m, yet it will only produce say 1,000 lambs worth £50 each. It seems strange to push so much money into an industry that produces very little.

 

If places like Africa are to escape grinding poverty they will have to build industries. For that reason I'd rather we imported more food from Africa....

[matelot]

lol, farmers get £2.7 billion of subsidies and produce £3.2 billion of GDP.... it's almost laughable.

 

United Kingdom GDP From Agriculture | 1990-2016 | Data | Chart | Calendar