Where does your loyalty lie?

[Le Sanglier]

The best sort of tree surgery is no tree surgery!

 

stay at home everyday then, look at the trees out of your window.

[easy-lift guy]

For all my years in the Landscaping and Arboriculture industry I have and continue to serve my clients needs. I have and always will provide options for dealing with my clients needs to the best of my professional abilities. Since I have expanded my business opperations by manufacturing products directly related to the above mentioned industries, I have developed a greater appreciation of not only educating my fellow colleagues but truly working smarter and not harder, unless it's a money tree!.

[Steve Hall]

its better to travel hopefully than arrive

ralph waldo emerson

[armybloke]

This thread started off relatively easy going, you know it was trees v client, light hearted and a good read. But then it started getting 'heavy', emotionally charged and readers views (holistic and pragmatic) came to the fore.

 

I tend to sit in the background being new to this 'game of trees' and forum. I have not had the experience of any of you that post on here by a long, long way. I have served for the her majesty for just over 30 years, volunteered in the countryside sector for 8 years and studied for a degree in wildlife and conservation - yeah yeah I'm off piste right now rambling on about my life but stay with me please - then the penny dropped as my contract with the army was about to end and I needed a job. I took my studies to arboriculture and recently qualified as a Tech Cert L3 and landed a job on my 1st interview with a very well known arborist to be an arb consultant. I was asked; 'would your knowledge of ecology and conservation guide your arboricultural consultant decision?' My answer was simple - conserve as much as you can for the benefit of others without making it detrimental to peoples livelyhood and health. In other words don't view every overhanging branch, fungal growth or abiotic disfigurment as a hazard and get a man or woman in to cut it down. Simple?...well not so.

 

I have an ecological, conservation and arborists head on my shoulders. A sponge for a brain and a very inquisitive mindset. This FORUM is awesome and it contains some extremely useful information by the way and has gone a long way in helping me pass all of my exams so thanks to every one of you that gives me their knowledge.

 

The more I get to learn and know the more I am cautious in my decision making. It is a bit like being confronted by the enemy - what I know about him and the weapons at his disposal gives me the edge and I am able to advice my subordinates and superiors accordingly in order to 'win the day'. Same in this business really the more you know the less likely you are to make the wrong decision.

 

I think you are all right in what you say - I am not fence siting - all what you have said is relative. Let me refer to those that have nothing, want for nothing and have an outlook on life we would generally envy. I have been so very fortunate to have travelled the world in my job. I have seen the poverty in Brunei, China, Africa and Central America. Yet despite living in a make-shift room of wriggly tin or sticks full to the brim with family, scratching for a living to make enough to feed the mouths that stare up at you from where they ALL smile, welcome you in and give you their last grain of rice to make you feel like one of the family. I felt humbled so many times in my life I have carried out charity work for the last 10 or so years trying to 'help' those less fortunate than myself. Trouble is I can not replace what 'we' have taken from them only give them a product of something 'we' take to make their lives better.

 

Those that need money make money, and we all have an obligation to tend to and fend for our off-spring - it's part of our genetic make-up. What we tend not to do is concern ourselves with replacing that which 'we' took. In this world of ever expanding population the demand outstrips the replacement and like a few have already mentioned TIME is not on our side. If you persuade a client to keep a tree and you don't make your 'dollar' for taking it down then which gives you most pleasure - leaving the tree or taking the money? Which ever way you look at your answer you are in favour of the client. You come away pleasing the client in both scenarios - he has saved money and he keeps the tree you were called in to take away or you take the tree away that worried him and take his money. In the former you have pleased the client because of your knowledge and the fact you saved him money. Now lets analyse this a little further - in your favour. You are the client and you call Hama (sorry to use you as an example trooper - hope you don't mind) round to look over your heavily butressed Quercus robur. Now, as we know from his previous thread decay on trees etc, he knows that just by looking at it the tree has been under some form of stress. The tree is in a perfect spot and Hama's experience and knowledge tells him that it is as healthy as the perfect specimen in Kew. The client is worried as the branches appear heavy and ladened and is worried that the big branches will fall on his collection of vintage cars. What would you do?? (You can answer that out loud on here if you want) The money you could make removing it and replacing it with a nice little Sorbus sp is immense - that new Yamaha R6 now looks possible!

 

The more you know the more you apply your knowledge. Client wins everytime yeah - but for the right reasons not for personal gain I'd say! My conscience wins for me so I know my answer from the above little rhetorical question. I'd love to be able to debate this all day, not to prove my point but to listen to opinions of others and absorb the knowledge.

 

On a personal note to Hama - you ever thought of taking your ideas and thoughts to another level? Lecturing or writing a paper to promote discusion and thought in the Arb world? Not to discount what is already out there or prove people 'wrong' merely for debate - you know; like you do on here!

 

Finally some beauty near poverty - no wonder they always smile!

[Sam Thompson]

Good post mate, lots there to be thinking about

[daltontrees]

What a breath of fresh air that post was, armybloke. I bet the macho brigade on the Forum won't read it though, not enough bar inches to hold their interest...

Anyway, I will abstain from voting. The answer to the question where does your loyalty lie? is 'with yourself', not with the tree or the client. And because we are all different there are many different outcomes to what happens when any of us go out to advise a client. If it's a clear cut case and the tree has to go, it has to go. If it is perfectly healthy there are plenty of weasels who will prey on the cleient's ignorance and talk him/her into unnecessary work. But there are also decent folk who believe in trees or their reputation for objectivity and will discuss it all honestly with the 'client' and end up getting nothing from it financially but getting lots of much better things. I would say I swing about 10% of clients away from unnecessary work but in many other cases I still do the work if after my observations and advice they still want the work done. If I don't do it someone else will. Badly, possibly.

Clients want to be told sometimes what they want to hear. We take down trees for people who have just bought a house, the previous owner may have loved the trees but the new owner wants light, a driveway, whatever. It is not as bad for the planet and mankind as them building a UPVC conservatory or getting a second car. And when we all get blown to smithereens someday, the trees will just move in and get on with it. All we can each do in the meantime is what we believe is right and so there is room for small differences to be made every day everywhere. So, Hamadryad, if you chuck in the towel, that's one less person winning quiet little daily victories for the trees.

[zeroluke]

The tree as it will be there long after the client has vanished.

 

Clever answer, thats what I was thinking. So, I must stand between you and hama, I left 10 or so conifers just before winter, because if I'd have taken some height off them the cold would have probably not done them much good and finished them off (her next door neighbor said oh I wouldn't worry about that, if shes paying you). Also it might give me a bad reputation. I spent a good few years doing conservation volunteer work, but there are next to no jobs doing it. I met someone who had travelled from as far as austrailia looking for work, with his degree. How disapointed he must have been when he got here

Edited March 25, 2011 by zeroluke
make something clearer

[Stephen Blair]

I left 10 or so conifers just before winter, because if I'd have taken some height off them the cold would have probably not done them much good and finished them off (QUOTE]

 

It wouldnt of made any diference reducing the height, Frost and windburn only damages the foliage that is left if you trim it in.

[MattyF]

My loyalty lies with the customers , I can try and convince them and educate them and pretty much most of the time they listen and take on board what you say, I very often tell clients no work is needed...... I do fell trees though that I don't think should of ever had too come down but if the tree officer oks the planning with no objections I'm in the business to fell tree's and that client is going to have there tree removes wether I like it or not...Of course going behind peoples back and getting them tpo'ed is an option ..... But that's the tree officers job , not that it's not been done but nearly all my work is on my door step going behind customers backs is not an option if I want to stay in buisness !

[Tony Croft aka hamadryad]

I understand that i am no longer an arborist, something I should have deduced some time ago, so my opinion is biassed and not worth entering.

 

I am simply now going through the motions till i can re train and get out!

 

recent thoughts have indeed influenced this, for I have come to realise that arborists are not middle men between trees and man, but experts in making people happy and in deducing the best excuse for a trees removal.

 

I cant be involved in a business like this, its ecologically unsustainable, and i cant live with it.

 

 

For the record, it is at moments like that, when i feel so bloody frustrated by the lack of natural empathy in this world that i have my greatest inspirations. I tend to be at my best just after a low point, like a rubber ball I will ALWAYS bounce back, and each time lessons learnt and the bounce back harder than the last. I do intend for things to change, to sow the seeds of evolution within arbs, some are old dogs, who seek no new tricks, but the younger generation, they are ready and willing to learn another way.

 

Many of you work on trees, and you must realise the great importance of these organisms, THINK about what it is that you claim to be, are you a tree fella, or are you an arboriculturist? We have a job to do, WE are the foresters, the keepers of the wild woods and the urban forest, it is our duty to do this to the very best of our abilities, and so far i see very few doing it truly to the best of THEIR abilities.

 

Take some bloody responsibility for what you do, and stop making that rubbish excuse that you do what you do for money etc etc, i earn a very good wage, my firm makes a very good turnover and we do this whilst retaining even some of the most suspect trees around.

 

You have no excuses, when the decision has been made over your head despite your best efforts then its o.k and no guilt should be felt in this. BUT

 

If you fell a tree because its worrying somebody, and sympathise with them on that point you best be able to explain WHY you sympathise AND have a darn good professional opinion to justify yourself, otherwise your just a hack and slash merchant and you aint no urban forester. your just overpaid labour.

 

And i will say this, its o.k to make mistakes, even to do a bad job, BUT you MUST learn in every one of these situations and do better next time. that is all we can do in life.