Whats Wrong With the Current System.

[MattyF]

A three year apentice scheme should be mandatory and be combined with nptcs and other training..atleast 6 months of that should be dragging brush too many people fast tracking there way in and ending up well out of there depth putting them selves and other people in danger let alone the bad quality work being commited

[Tom D]

Interesting read this thread, especially the last comments by Antwood, I think that whilst its true that there is no substitute for experience, its better to be taught to do something the right way first rather than learning on the job from someone whose main interests are getting on to the next job. I've seen a few climbers who have years of experience and can get round a tree quicker than me but who simply aren't safe and have'nt got a clue about the finer points of tree care. Running round the crown of a large tree dropping brash so fast no one can pick it up before walking away from the resulting pile and leaving the poor groundies to clear up the mess does not make a great climber.

 

Some sort of on the job CPD would be a good thing after initial nptc assesment, but assesment should go hand in hand with working, perhaps doing a new unit every few months and then going back to work to hone newly learned skills.

 

This is down to employers in the end, i think too many cant bear to wait while a young climber gets up to speed so new employees end up doing groundwork and gaining little experience. If i had an accident while climbing i would want to be rescued by someone who was comfortable in any climbing situation and who could reach me quickly, not someone who did areal rescue last year and has'nt climbed since. I only have one full time employee who has just finished his ND Arb, he has been with me for 10 months and I have had him climbing at every opportunity, it has been painfuly slow at times and we have had some late finishes but he is now pretty competent and better than some others that I have seen. I still would like to see some sort of amalgamated qualification called "tree surgeon" or "arborist" . What the requirements for that should be are open to debate but some genuine on the job CPD should be included.

[Arbocop]

to all that have contributed so far

 

thanks very much i am reading it all and will be taking your comments on the 24th.

 

interesting that no one has said nothing is wrong with it??? but nothing will ever be perfect.

 

as to the comments about me showing mine i will when the poll is closed some people have touched on things i belive in already, hears a clue hands up all those who did a formal training scheme within an employer over a 4 year period gaining CoC's College and practical experience.......

 

cheers all hope to see some of you at the trade fair ill be in the BTS shirt hehehehehhehe

[conkers]

Experience can be gained after your basic NPTC introduction.

The problems in the industry I reckon are two fold.

1. Get yout tickets- think you can do anything set up and have some nasty suprises!

2. Get tickets- get job with poor employer who sees you as a meal ticket and has the "get up there and get on with it" approach.

 

Both examples are less about training in the first place and more about attitude and application.

Everybody is different. Personally I consider myself a good climber now and realise how poor I was 8-9 years ago.

Still consider myself crap at sharpening chains though!

All NPTC can ever do is give you the basics and hopefully show people to listen and not rush.

[Laz]

These have it pretty much covered:

 

http://www.treemettlenexus.com/article8.html

 

http://www.treemettlenexus.com/pdfs/facts_on_training.pdf

 

The key to resolving this issue, is, how do we choose to define 'competence' for required roles in our industry?

 

- Competent Climber

- Competent Groundie

- Competent Supervisor

- Competent employer

 

NPTC certs certainly are not it, and have been mis-sold as such.

[Andy Collins]

I'm struggling to see this point. NPTC's served many well, you get your ticket, you learn on-site from your peers the best way to do a given job. You learn to work hard, methodically, safely in order to make the company a profit. Many of the best, safest people I know have worked this way for many years. I can think of several "old school" guys who were in this job before we were a twinkle in our old mans' eye, they can fell the largest trees, climb in a safe and professional manner, rig out, crane jobs, its nothing new, and its not rocket science, we cut trees. We are now encumbered with so much legislation, red tape, specific R/As, method statements it makes the job a pita.

As the recession bites, what small companies are going to be able to afford all these new courses, when they are already struggling to make ends meet? I know this post isnt productive in the context of what being discussed, but this is what I hear from the grass roots level, in my area.

[Bundle 2]

Actually Andy, I think you are right when say it isnt very productive in this context but I cant help finding myself in agreement. I got NPTC's and went on to gain experience and necessary further input in order to "progress". It was hard work and costly in more ways than one in so many ways although I regert none of it.

The point tho is that it really shouldnt be so much hard work and stuggling just to become adequately competent...surely it should aim to be a professional career choice for aspiring professionally minded people in a respected and valued industry.

Can you honestly say that NPTC's aim to deliver all that cos I dont myself think they were ever designed as such although, and to their credit, reviews like the poll perhaps are aimed at a dynamic self awareness necessary for schemes survival.

[Lee Winger]

I'm struggling to see this point. NPTC's served many well, you get your ticket, you learn on-site from your peers the best way to do a given job. You learn to work hard, methodically, safely in order to make the company a profit. Many of the best, safest people I know have worked this way for many years. I can think of several "old school" guys who were in this job before we were a twinkle in our old mans' eye, they can fell the largest trees, climb in a safe and professional manner, rig out, crane jobs, its nothing new, and its not rocket science, we cut trees. We are now encumbered with so much legislation, red tape, specific R/As, method statements it makes the job a pita.

As the recession bites, what small companies are going to be able to afford all these new courses, when they are already struggling to make ends meet? I know this post isnt productive in the context of what being discussed, but this is what I hear from the grass roots level, in my area.

 

 

Good post, my problem is NPTC courses are way too expensive

[Pete Mctree]

Good post, my problem is NPTC courses are way too expensive

 

They are costly no doubt, but any more comprehensive training scheme would be even more prohibitive would it not?

 

If the curent tickets are not suplimented by futher training by employers the constant complaints will continue. I look at NPTC tickets as a start point, not a finishing line.

[Ian Leach]

I think NPTC is a good start , most employers won't give you a lookin without the basic tickets. Maybe there to expensive who knows. It's also finding a decent employer who will point you in the right direction, not just to do it yourself. Knowledge should be shared, it's no use to you when your dead. It's only my opinion.