How much should an owner of a tree business be on per year?

[swinny]

This is all great but more teams more hassle. Didn't you say recently its touch and go bar one contract Clutchy? 

 

Hardly a dead cert that 90k a year then.

 

Smaller companies less staff it's easier to keep hitting constant targets.

 

Work flow is key to all sizes

[Clutchy]

12 minutes ago, swinny said:

This is all great but more teams more hassle. Didn't you say recently its touch and go bar one contract Clutchy? 

 

Hardly a dead cert that 90k a year then.

 

Smaller companies less staff it's easier to keep hitting constant targets.

 

Work flow is key to all sizes

Indeed, and the battle to keep my company going, in my opinion, is worth £90k a year to me for 2 x teams 

 

Or ill just take £50k a year as a contract climber (if I was) or more likely, back to my office job which would pay the same (50k), if not more with way less hassle, and I haven't got the worry of a wage bill every month

 

Perhaps I'm on my own when it comes to placing a high value on the stress, extra time and capital investment etc of running my own tree business 

[swinny]

44 minutes ago, Clutchy said:

Indeed, and the battle to keep my company going, in my opinion, is worth £90k a year to me for 2 x teams 

 

Or ill just take £50k a year as a contract climber (if I was) or more likely, back to my office job which would pay the same (50k), if not more with way less hassle, and I haven't got the worry of a wage bill every month

 

Perhaps I'm on my own when it comes to placing a high value on the stress, extra time and capital investment etc of running my own tree business 

No not at all... I see where your coming from. 

 

I think it will be miles different north south divide.... 

 

I do wonder though if your running Costs / outgoings are one of the main issues for you here.

 

I bet your near burnt out and stressed to F.

 

Have you peaked? Grown to an unsustainable level? Or need more admin staff? I'm sure there's something that would ease some burden for you to drum up more business or fine tune other areas. 

[JLA1990]

40 minutes ago, Clutchy said:

Indeed, and the battle to keep my company going, in my opinion, is worth £90k a year to me for 2 x teams 

 

Or ill just take £50k a year as a contract climber (if I was) or more likely, back to my office job which would pay the same (50k), if not more with way less hassle, and I haven't got the worry of a wage bill every month

 

Perhaps I'm on my own when it comes to placing a high value on the stress, extra time and capital investment etc of running my own tree business 

I recently jacked in being a company director for this reason, I had two teams which allowed me the 90k I was after however with recruiting being my main headache (could talk forever about this) I decided it wasn’t worth the stress. I’ve now stepped back into construction and although I take home less I have healthy cash flow (customers stick to payment terms unlike my previous clients mostly house builders), low overheads, more free time. I’m going to take a few years out and hopefully get back into the tree/de-veg game when things have improved (Hopefully). 
 

Based on my experience as I’m sure a lot of people will agree your money is hard earned in this field but with the added risk of injury, machine breakdowns, weather, payment delays, staffing problems etc it has to make financial sense. For me, I’ve come to the realisation there’s easier ways of making money. 

[Clutchy]

1 hour ago, swinny said:

No not at all... I see where your coming from. 

 

I think it will be miles different north south divide.... 

 

I do wonder though if your running Costs / outgoings are one of the main issues for you here.

 

I bet your near burnt out and stressed to F.

 

Have you peaked? Grown to an unsustainable level? Or need more admin staff? I'm sure there's something that would ease some burden for you to drum up more business or fine tune other areas. 

 

 

Costs could be the issue, but the only area I could save on without devaluing the service I deliver would be on advertising and that's only 2k a month. I think its always easier/better to bring in more money then to try and cut 

 

I don't 'think' I've grown to an unsustainable level, I've only been going full time 3 years, I'm 27, if it all goes wrong so be it, I'm not that bothered  but I need to try and make it work. 

 

I'm pretty sure I can handle more stress, although this year I've started to find grey hairs 😅 

 

Ultimately, if it fails it's because I haven't tried hard enough and that's on me. I know I could push harder, and I should 

 

I think the question I need the answer too is it even possible to make it work with this business? This month I thought it was, I made 20k profit after wages and 27k outgoings but now the works quiet haha, so maybe not??

 

So conflicted, young and probably naive 

[Mick Dempsey]

27 is young, you’ve achieved a lot.

I have no answers for you  (that I’ll put on here) Don’t be too tough on yourself.

[JLA1990]

25 minutes ago, Clutchy said:

 

 

Costs could be the issue, but the only area I could save on without devaluing the service I deliver would be on advertising and that's only 2k a month. I think its always easier/better to bring in more money then to try and cut 

 

I don't 'think' I've grown to an unsustainable level, I've only been going full time 3 years, I'm 27, if it all goes wrong so be it, I'm not that bothered  but I need to try and make it work. 

 

I'm pretty sure I can handle more stress, although this year I've started to find grey hairs 😅 

 

Ultimately, if it fails it's because I haven't tried hard enough and that's on me. I know I could push harder, and I should 

 

I think the question I need the answer too is it even possible to make it work with this business? This month I thought it was, I made 20k profit after wages and 27k outgoings but now the works quiet haha, so maybe not??

 

So conflicted, young and probably naive 

Similar scenario (I’m 32 and the business had gone in to its fourth year). Tree work alone wasn’t enough to sustain the profits I wanted so I diversified into ecology/site clearance works, not sure if that’s an avenue you have/want to explore - greater profit margins, larger projects with  a sustained work load. I had the same ethos in respect to not wanting to make cuts, although I didn’t rely on advertising as I knuckled down and put in many hours talking to the right people in different sectors mainly big project management companies for large development companies housing/commercial. Hope it’s not coming across “trying to teach you how to suck eggs”  just saying there’s possibly markets you have not yet explored where the margins are significantly higher than dealing with domestic/council work. 

[Joe Newton]

2 hours ago, Clutchy said:

Indeed, and the battle to keep my company going, in my opinion, is worth £90k a year to me for 2 x teams 

 

Or ill just take £50k a year as a contract climber (if I was) or more likely, back to my office job which would pay the same (50k), if not more with way less hassle, and I haven't got the worry of a wage bill every month

 

Perhaps I'm on my own when it comes to placing a high value on the stress, extra time and capital investment etc of running my own tree business 

Firstly, it's doubtful you'd be capable of being a freelance climber earning this rates.

 

Secondly, the climbers charging the figures you've suggested aren't earning that. Kit, travel costs, cancellations etc take a pretty large chunk out of that top end.

 

The answer to your question will vary with every person you ask, but I agree with your estimate, it's not worth doing for less, which is why I don't.

[Steven P]

90k - if you compare yourself to pretty much all 27 year olds then you are well ahead of them, average being just a little under 25k, and the upper 10% starting at about half what you think is an OK salary for a business owner. So at that, and even at 50k you are well ahead of pretty much all your mates. Again, a 50k desk job will be double their average salaries too.

 

Internet reckons an average business owner - the founder running it day to day which sounds like you are on mid £40ks - - which will have all the stresses you do with staffing, booking jobs, potentially the overheads of an office to keep up and so on.

 

Which brings me to a small question then - to take 90k out of the business, what does the turn over have to be? That might be the answer you want. If you work hard, get a good turn over, then you might expect better rewards, the internet reckons 2% of turn over is decent, ranges from 1% to 10% which would suggest your business turn over from 900K upwards - assuming the upper 10% because the overheads might be less - need tools and vehicles but no expensive city centre offices.

 

Final thought on all of this is how much you are returning into the business - tools, training, advertising, cash for a rainy day,. and so on.

 

 

 

Last final thing, I wanted to pick you up on the freelance climbers wages, a day rate, less 4 weeks holiday, plus bank holidays, sick days, money into a pension, insurances, machines, 'company' vehicle and so on - their take home won't be near 57k less tax. That is if they can get work every other day of the year - not sure they will. Same with all contractors, the rate sounds great till you deduct everything and take account that they don't work 200 days in the year

 

Edited April 20, 2023 by Steven P

[Clutchy]

12 hours ago, JLA1990 said:

Similar scenario (I’m 32 and the business had gone in to its fourth year). Tree work alone wasn’t enough to sustain the profits I wanted so I diversified into ecology/site clearance works, not sure if that’s an avenue you have/want to explore - greater profit margins, larger projects with  a sustained work load. I had the same ethos in respect to not wanting to make cuts, although I didn’t rely on advertising as I knuckled down and put in many hours talking to the right people in different sectors mainly big project management companies for large development companies housing/commercial. Hope it’s not coming across “trying to teach you how to suck eggs”  just saying there’s possibly markets you have not yet explored where the margins are significantly higher than dealing with domestic/council work. 

Not at I'll, will be sending you a PM if you don't mind. 

 

You are right, my highest paying clients are all based on relationships and didn’t come from advertising