Illegal tree felling in England to be punishable with jail and uncapped fines

[Squaredy]

2 hours ago, daltontrees said:

I doubt if it was that straightforward.

The FC has published a book (free) on how to measure or estimate itmber volume. By far the most fickle is working out volume based only on stumps, due to basal flare (not stem taper, that is easy to allow for).

Average diameter is NOT a reliable basis for caculating volume, precisely because of taper, which is not uniform along stem. This changes depending on species, habit, exposure, growing conditions, crown damage and loads of other things.

So what was the outcome, did FC drop the prosecution?

I don't think you can infer incompetence from the abilities of a couple of officers. But the old guard who know their stuff are fewer and fewer.

Mensuration is piss easy. FC should be able to get it right, as they wrote the book.

Yes they dropped the case.  
 

When I say average diameter, I mean average for each log based on the diameter at each end.  That is very accurate.

 

And the way I was able to help the guy apart from telling him how I would work it out is by letting him borrow my FC books.  NRW had told him about the existence of the proper books giving all the different methods of calculation but not let him have them.  Luckily I had the books he needed.

Edited January 3, 2023 by Squaredy

[Logdaft]

If anyone get`s prosecuted for this it`ll be a Mackerel .......

[GarethM]

Think we're trawling titanic depths for puns, even zee seagulls won't follow this trawler.

[nepia]

16 hours ago, Squaredy said:

I was approached recently for help from someone who has been accused by NRW (FC in Wales) of illegal felling.  They were all over him, yet they had no idea how to calculate timber volume.  

Did someone dab him in it to try and put him in his plaice or was it just an unfortunate act of cod that the FC found out?  Bet he's a sole trader

[daltontrees]

2 hours ago, Squaredy said:

Yes they dropped the case.  
 

When I say average diameter, I mean average for each log based on the diameter at each end.  That is very accurate.

 

And the way I was able to help the guy apart from telling him how I would work it out is by letting him borrow my FC books.  NRW had told him about the existence of the proper books giving all the different methods of calculation but not let him have them.  Luckily I had the books he needed.

OK if it had been logged up then average of each log would be good.

Poor guy being sent out without the basics.

I had one of these cases recently, FC folk everywhere measuring everything. They gave up. It was too borderline to prove anything.

But I do worry for teh future, current FC capabilities and resources are dubious.

[Jon Heuch]

17 hours ago, Squaredy said:

And these people probably have forestry degrees and pretty good salaries paid for by our taxes!

I can't vouch for every "forestry" degree but mensuration is a key element of any half decent forestry course & is not "piss easy". It may only appear so if you have never studied it. Lots of complex stats depending upon what you are trying to do. The UK Yield Class system does mean that foresters can do all sorts of stuff without understanding anything or at least very little behind it.

 

The real trouble is that there are very few half decent forestry courses & thus a real shortage of forestry graduates, so around 50% of professional applicants to the ICF have neither forestry nor arb degree.......coupled with NRW being an amalgam of at least 3 different technical discplines with the ex FC Wales being only one of them. So yes, good salaries & gold-plated pensions but don't assume a forestry degree!

 

If you want to check any individual just ask them to confirm what Huber's formula is.....

[Doug Tait]

2 hours ago, nepia said:

Did someone dab him in it to try and put him in his plaice or was it just an unfortunate act of cod that the FC found out?  Bet he's a sole trader

 

It's fincredible you'd say such a thing nepia, bassuming they're gillty of such an act purely because they're a sole trader, eelspecially on a forum for tree sturgeons.

[Stubby]

13 minutes ago, Doug Tait said:

 

It's fincredible you'd say such a thing nepia, bassuming they're gillty of such an act purely because they're a sole trader, eelspecially on a forum for tree sturgeons.

You got quite a few in there Doug 😀

[Doug Tait]

1 minute ago, Stubby said:

You got quite a few in there Doug 😀

Think I'm spent now though

[daltontrees]

1 hour ago, Jon Heuch said:

I can't vouch for every "forestry" degree but mensuration is a key element of any half decent forestry course & is not "piss easy". It may only appear so if you have never studied it. Lots of complex stats depending upon what you are trying to do. The UK Yield Class system does mean that foresters can do all sorts of stuff without understanding anything or at least very little behind it.

 

The real trouble is that there are very few half decent forestry courses & thus a real shortage of forestry graduates, so around 50% of professional applicants to the ICF have neither forestry nor arb degree.......coupled with NRW being an amalgam of at least 3 different technical discplines with the ex FC Wales being only one of them. So yes, good salaries & gold-plated pensions but don't assume a forestry degree!

 

If you want to check any individual just ask them to confirm what Huber's formula is.....

I didn't say it wasn't complicated, but the formulae are pretty simple. Huber's formula, for example, is similar what was discussed earlier, namely volume of log equal cross sectional area of log at its midpoint, times its length. Essentially simplifying it to the equivalent of a cylinder.

I should have said 'I find it piss easy'.  Blissfully ignorant I am to the complexities. Despite having studied it. But then, I do geometry problems for fun. I would encourage anyone to take time out to pin down a few methods. It's the mystique about mensuration that dissuades, but the maths is simple.

I woud agree that the young'uns coming through in forestry probably don't have  a good grounding.

And for my part I have managed to sneak into the ICF without a forestry or arb degree, but I had to do it the hard way 🙂